Planning for Next Year

Ｉthought Phil's idea was half day regular ("tranditional") and half day optional. I like this idea actually. Have half a day to practice what's taught in the morning.

The idea of a rest day in between had been tossed around and discussed a lot last year. I heard the coaches don't quite like it because it takes them away from their regular earning without guarantee of attendence during the "optional" day.

Although I live in the east, I'm not going to devote a full week to ski the east. Sorry for being such a snob. For a week long trip, the cost of the airplane was a relatively small part of the total expense．Ｉ　ｐｒｅｆｅｒ　ｇｕａｒａｎｔｅｅ　ｓｎｏｗ　ＱＵＡＬＩＴＹ　（ｎｏｔ　＂ｊｕｓｔ＂　ａｄｅｑｕａｔｅ　ｑｕａｎｔｉｔｙ）

Mike, if you can drive to Aspen, it would make no sense at all to fly to Stowe.



T h a t 's     g r e a t    y o u    j u s t    d o   t h a t    t h e n .

Seriously though, there is an ESA in Aspen. Nobody is making anybody go to Stowe and we have had requests for this for years. If you don't want to come, don't come.

 I'm trying to stay back and read what people want because I've had the good fortune of attending ESA Events at three different venues and with two different platforms(two day coaching and 4 day coaching).  I've seen the benefit of both platforms and am eager to see what comes to mind from others.

There are two things that I've seen expressed in threads on epicski and at the events...... one is a two day event similar to Stowe's ESA/ETU in the West, the other is a week long(or 4 day) event at Stowe.  So, I'm not surprised to see that this is on the table for ESA 2009-10.

Asking for guaranteed snow conditions at any resort for any event is not sensible......What you can expect from any of the ESA events is incredible coaching in an incredible atmosphere.



Edited by Trekchick - 7/8/2009 at 01:26 am GMT

One thought about ESA venues as a potential customer (though I've never followed through and gone to one)...

I would be a lot more likely to do an ESA at a mountain I was NOT familiar with than at one I knew well.  I think the support system for exploring new terrain is a big bonus on top of the actual instruction.   If there are a lot of people like me, that makes moving around from year to year a good thing in and of itself.


(But I really was starting to talk myself into Big Sky....)

I'd consider a longer, later season event at Stowe...depending on dates.

 

On that note, thanks for posting the dates for Stowe and Aspen so early!

I don't ask for it. I take it for granted at Aspen/Big Sky. :)

I'm glad more are on offer at Stowe. I wouldn't mind doing a late season instead of early season, since snow is more likely to be reliable then. But if I'm taking a week off work to ski, I'm going west. That's all I was saying.  

In thinking about it, I can see the logic in planning an event in the East.  While I likely won't come, I can see that an eastern event would be easier for many to get to, and might pull a larger crowd.  

The events at Big Sky have been fantastic for the participants, but I'm sure that ESA didn't make any money on them, and perhaps even lost money.  There simply were not enough folk there.  It's too bad, because the terrain was terrific and the coaching out-of-sight.  I suppose we ought to ask ourselves why they weren't better attended?

One reason probably has to do with the difficulty of getting to Big Sky.  For many people, you have to take 3 flights, and virtually no one can get there on a non-stop.  The travel time is pretty tough, not to mention the way that airlines ding you on the airfare.

Another reason is that the event is very late in the ski season.  For some folk, I heard them say that they wanted to be able to put what they learned at ESA to use immediately, and an event at the beginning of April simply didn't allow that.  Too bad for them, as both years (perhaps they were anomalies) the skiing was fantastic, and this year was simply the best skiing I have had ever, anywhere, anytime, in 30+ years of skiing.

In thinking about a late season event, then, I wonder if the location doesn't matter in that you are unlikely to get many people coming no matter what.  Holding an event in the East late season might still result in few attendees.

The question then might be how to better attract folk to an eastern event?  It seems that the premise of such a question is to attract folk who otherwise won't take the time to travel to ESA Aspen.  If that's the case, then it seems that either 1) the event needs to be held over a weekend to minimize the need to take vacation or 2) it needs to be a shorter event.

So, does this seem like it is on track?  Just trying to help out my favorite ski camp.

Mike

 Mike, your thoughts are very clear and well thought out.  If you recall correctly, the thread was started last year before the Big Sky Dates were set and the date that was picked was by popular vote in that thread.
One of the factors I recall being discussed was cost.  Late season events make them more $$$ friendly.  That is a huge factor for many....no?

Like you, I experienced the best skiing of my life at that event and have no issues or concern about taking the skills into the next season.  The coaching and the skiing was THAT incredible!

That event already exist. It's the Stowe ESA in December. (the only small problem being there's one year there's very little snow at all)

Also, since it's now pretty typical for the east to have a Janurary thaw anyway, it's not that much worse holding it late season (in this case probably late March rather than early April). The snow coverage would be better and there's just as much (or as little) chance to pratice after the clinic.

I think the main problem with the 3rd ESA of the year is always due to the 1) enough time from ESA Aspen 2) avoiding mid-season crowd (& price), which basically excluded all of Feburary and March. But by then, it's "too late" for most of folks.

I think the premise of the early event is to offer an early season "tune up" to get the season underway.  Seems like it is a reasonable premise to me.  One question might be whether the early season tune up might be better done elsewhere, thus a later season East event might draw more of a crowd...

Thoughts?

RISkier and I are going to be at Vail just after the ESA dates at Aspen. Do you guys have a ballpark on the price out there? We've been looking at airfare from Providence RI and we can get tickets for less than $250 each, there's no real reason we couldn't go out a few days early and get all primed for our week at Vail.

God I can't wait for winter.

 Snow is always a crap shoot, if we had the ability to "guarantee snow", we wouldn't be wasting our time running a website, we would be going from ski area to ski area setting up conditions. In the past 2 of 3 years I was at Stowe for ESA in December, one weekend was a WRoD and the other was epic mid season conditions and we skied everywhere including much of the woods. Who knows what we can get. Big Sky was incredible this year too. As much as I loved BS, it IS a PITA to get to from most parts of the country. 

Hence the lack of crowds and the fact that the snow quality holds up.

I second this yes it was harder to get to big sky than aspen but it was some unbelievable conditions and terrain.

I kind of look at it like this it takes all day of flying to pretty much get anywhere in this country so if I am going to ski I want to be at the best possible place for the chance at the best possible conditions.  

Plane tix are a fairly small percentage of the overall cost -- though, as said, tix there are expensive. When taken in the context of the overall trip costs, it's not all that much. From Philly to Bozeman, tix right now are $475. Definitley not cheap, but not crazy. Airport transfer was another 100 bucks via Karst. Throw in $25 bucks for checking bags and we're looking at $600.

Driving both ways from Delaware to Stowe takes about the same amount of time as flying to Bozeman/Big Sky, and we'll say between meals and gas it'll cost $150 round trip to drive round trip. That difference is $450.

Now, let's look at the total cost once you get there:
ESA - $950
Hotel - $920 (Hotel for 8 nights* at $115 per night)
Dinner - $200 ($25 per night -- a beer or two adds up quick)
Lunch - $80
Extra Lift Tix - $160 (2 days)

*If I'm taking a  week off work, I'm going to ski the whole damn time, not just during ESA

Now, that's a 19% increase over Stowe prices for me to fly to Big Sky. Do I consider Big Sky a 19% improvement over Stowe? 

Hell Yeah!


Plus, the 16 hours+ driving round trip makes me cranky.

Those are interesting numbers.  At a casual glance, it looks like the hotel discount pays for the ESA!

They're really sketchy numbers based on last year's Big Sky ESA. Getting a roommate will cut down on cost, and skipping a few beers will knock down the price of dinner significantly, but it's something to look at.

Of course, you can look at absolute dollars and say $450s enough for a new pair or skis, and your being from Beantown makes the travel cost negligable.

You have a very good point.

To some, they're more incline to spend the $450 on a pair of fatty than to spend the money to travel to places to use that fatty! ;-)

 Keith

Your logic makes sense.  However, the long and short of it is that despite two years of stellar conditions, stellar terrain, and stellar coaches, the attendance at the ESA Big Sky event has had to be disappointing to the event organizers.  Granted, the attendance at ESA Aspen this year was way off as well, but still, you've got to wonder if it isn't getting to the point of insanity.  While I'd think about attending ESA Big Sky again and have little interest in a Stowe event, might a Stowe event draw more interest?  I expect that without some hard indication that folk really were going to show up at an ESA Big Sky event, it wouldn't make economic sense to run it again this next season.

That's a shame.  Big Sky is a fantastic mountain.  The conditions both last year and this were out of sight (I got the nickname SnowBlower for a reason -- continuous face shots!).  Anyone want to put commitment to the event down here?

Joan, maybe you ought to run a poll...  (that way we could weight in with "this poll is flawed" comments).

Mike

 I know that the Vail resorts aren't that far from Aspen, but if you had an ESA at one of the Vail resorts, I could save a few bucks using my Epic pass.

Plus, some front range skiers have places to stay at the Epic pass resorts since they go there all the time.

There might be a large untapped Colorado audience that the Aspen ESA doesn't make sense for because they've already paid for a pass and have a line on lodging and can't justify paying for lift tickets and lodging at a different resort.

It's hard to get Aspen ESA past the budget committee at my house.

I'd also be interested in an early season offering at one of the Colorado front range resorts. 

Well, if you are talking commitments I have to admit that I have my doubts whether I can get an "extra" ski trip past the budget committee this year.  It's looking like even the primary trip (my son's Feb school vacation) will take concerted lobbying.


So much as I would like to push hard for Big Sky, it would not be honest at this point.


Hey there's a thought -- I know it would never happen, because the economics requires off-peak times, but if an ESA were over school vacation there is a good chance we both would go.

I couldn't agree more...While ESA has changed my skiing, the week at BigSky made the most significant impact on me since I first clicked into skis over 20 years ago.
What an incredible event that was!!


Commit?  I'll buy a plane ticket today.  Mike, you in?  That makes 2
We only need 43 more. 
(not including staff)



Edited by Trekchick - 7/15/2009 at 12:29 pm GMT

Yeah, I know -- I just wanted to share my decision-making process and maybe throw people who went, "oh plane tix are expenseive" off of the fence in the direction of actually examining their decisions.

I hope to make it to the early-season event this year, and I might be lined up for some free/inexpensive Aspen Lodging, so I'll hopefully be at ESA aspen this year -- that being said, if I do hit Aspen, I won't necessarily be able to go to Big Sky, too...

Though Big Sky is officially my favorite mountain after the last two years.

 Sure, if you guys come to BS, I'll go to.  I've just made my reservations for my free room at the St. Regis in Aspen.  While I get the room for free, my spouse's spa bill makes sure that it really isn't.

Mike

LOL!!!!!!!...I know dat feelin'!!!!!!

Mike, Trek @ Co.....I'm in for BS as well as Aspen.  Take wifey with me to Aspen, let 'er have some fun( already making reservations)..that way I get a guy's pass to BS!!!!!

dang it!!!!  just made my 2000th post..where's my prize????
 

2000th pffft, thats nuthin!

 Alephnull maybe I've missed it, but.....have you skied Stowe? 
I've been there three times and although its not the magnitude of BigSky, it is an incredible place.  The accommodations this year will be the best of the best, which is something I'd love to share with Alephmom if you can nudge her to join us.

Nolo, are the dates for Snowmass ESA firm?  I have a line on some cheap plane tickets that I will book now if the dates are set in stone.

 The dates are set in stone. 

Trek,

I've been to Stowe, and it ain't bad, but I've got limited days and as Jim Morrison said, "the west is the best."