Got my new Velonews today. It says they are working on a 26 vs 29 test too. Maybe we should devise the perfect test and have Mythbusters tackle it.

Hmm.... maybe one of these would be even more efficient for such a ride.

Well not really. We're talkin' real dirt. Cross bikes are for the road and gravel bike paths. Jeep trails are death for skinney tires.

really ???

Point made. Cross bikes are fine in mud.

But not for this



Or even for this



Not that you couldn't ride a cross bike on this stuff, but...I wouldn't suggest it.

Hey Mudfoot!

How about this one...: )



http://mtobikes.com/interbike-2008-expo-pronghorn-racing-debut-of-top-mounted-suspension-mountain-bikes/



The silimarity is rather striking.

Yep, our current womens XC champion has been on a hardtail for six years because she wants to give all those faster FS bikes a chance

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2009/probikes/?id=mary_mcconneloug_seven09

 

	Photo ©: James Huang

It is common practice for top-level racers to receive all-new machines each season - or even more often - but current US national cross-country champion Mary McConneloug (Team Kenda-Seven-NoTubes) is bucking that trend in a big way. Seven Cycles built McConneloug's custom Sola Gold during the lead-up to the 2004 Olympics and that same frame is now soldiering through its sixth season on the World Cup circuit.

McConneloug's Seven is one of just a handful of titanium bikes currently on the scene yet the 37-year-old California native that now calls Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts home sees no disadvantage relative to her mostly carbon-equipped competition. In fact, McConneloug is quite proud of the fact that this same machine has carried her through two Olympic games and four national titles and there's little mistaking that she doesn't look forward to the day when it eventually gives up the ghost - if that day ever comes.

"I've ridden a carbon fiber bike and I like it but there's something about a titanium bike," she said. "It just feels so good riding off-road and I just have this intuition that it's my favorite bike. I love it and I prefer to ride [titanium]; there's nothing like it. It feels so perfect. It's almost like a relief - the frame is the same and only the parts are changing each season. You don't need a new bike every year unless it's not working."

 

Sorry about the font above....gave up on fixing it.

I saw a thread on "what bike to bring to Bend?"  (MT Bike Action's #1 MTB location in America)

One reply was that  a single speed cyclocross bike is overkill.

I'll bet 80% are on FS, but thats because that was last years trend.  The really trendy are on fully rigid SS 29ers.

The COOLEST small town is Fayetteville, WV. Thank you. : )
http://www.budgettravel.com/bt-dyn/content/article/2006/03/09/AR2006030901203.html

Slow people...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNptXCtHqjQ&feature=related

Geronimo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXouc_g1S7U&NR=1

like lemmings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYlqgpEqLCs&feature=fvw
Edited by Johnnys Zoo - 6/25/2009 at 07:54 pm GMT

Johnnys Zoo, thanks!  You are right they are similar.  If you look at my bike you can see that the linkage mechinismm is fairly small and simple, but I get 4 inches of travel out of it.  The advantage for me, besides light weight and ease of turning the shock on and off, is that the unobstructed inside triangle allows easy over the shoulder bike carrying for hike-a-bike sections. Instead of tube bending Chris simply used a piece of tube sideways as a joint to make the angle on the top tube.  With the lighter (non-tiple clamp) fork I have now it comes in at 26.75 lbs, which isn't bad for a 4" travel bike for a guy our size that doesn't have super light wheels or a lot of high zoot parts.  My frame was made at the end of 2000, so the "team of Danish engineers" are only about 8 years off the back of Chris Herting at 3D Racing in Durango, Colorado.

When I saw your first post, I was immediately reminded of the Pronghorn. There is a recent review of this bike in either Dirt Rag, Mountain Bike Action, or mtbr.com. I'll try and dig it up if you like.

I seem to remember your-Chris's 26 inch bike from somewhere....? Long ago

Oh, I'm only 6ft even. Sorry to mislead.

If you get the chance, watch a 24 hour MTB race. There are many 29ers now. It made me a believer last year.

Review of 26 inch version in March 09, Mountain Bike Action. In summary, it is still basically a modified single pivot design. Not that thats bad, but there are a lot of good bikes out there with simlar set ups. This design just chose to locate the shock on top of the top tube.

Edited by Johnnys Zoo - 6/26/2009 at 12:49 pm GMT

I am nowhere near as knowledgeable about this stuff as you guys are.  I've only ridden cheap full suspension, and front suspension bikes.  However I've noticed a couple of things that you seem to be overlooking.

It is completely beside the point to me that with the same power input at the crank the full suspension bike does better.  The advantage of the hard tail is that I CAN put more power into it.  I can really lay into in the power portion of my stroke, using leg geometry to my advanatage.  Maybe if you have an eccentric front gear, this isn't a factor, but it sure is for me.  With a suspension in back, the bike sinks down when I apply power.

Of course it also would depend on the trail. A bumpier trail might give the advantage to the full suspension bike; a smoother trail not so much.  With good rubber (Michlin Pilotes or Firestone PV41 or any AA traction tire in a high speed rating) on my old wagon, I can outdo a lot of better-suspended, lighter, vehicles with so-so tires on a smooth twisty road.  Add in a few mid-corner bumps or potholes and that solid rear axle and all that mass evens thing out. 

you ride flats your opinion is nulified right there. There is no such thing as power portion of your stroke, it should be equal all the ways around.

first I never brought cost into this you did.

whether you enjoy going up or down more FS is faster everywhere if its rough.

The reason why Hardtail still rule the roost at WC events is due to how not techincal the courses are. Even the so called technical course like offenburg look easy compared to what are trails in much of america.

BWPA - When is rant #2 in your series coming out?

I'm hoping it will be 'Rant B'...

If shock bikes aren't heavier, slower, and taking back some downstroke when pedaling then why aren't there any road racing bikes with shocks?

If Baja 1000 race trucks are heavier and have more suspension than F1 cars, how come Baja trucks aren't just like F1 cars ???

jet airplanes are faster than submarines... how come submarines don't have jet engines ???

different horses for different courses.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.asp?pg=fullstory&id=836

Actually I ride hills just as steep as anything I've seen posted with bikes on as well as flats, rock gardens, and mud holes.  The hills just aren't very big, so the trail snakes back and forth up and down the same ridge.

You are probablhy right about my stroke not being properly even.  I tend to stand on the pedals and almost take turns right-left kicking down on 'em while pulling up on the handle bars on the steeper sections.   I'm working on improving my stroke, mostly due to balancing while stalling out with one foot down and one foot up was problematic in lower gears.

That would work if muscles were distributed evenly.  A good, fairly round pedal motion uses muscles to their best efficiency.  A perfect even stroke under uses the big ones and over uses the small ones.

I'll try and get an isokinetic torque curve. Anyone remember biopace chain rings? : )

In laymans terms, the quad to hamstring strength ratio is generally 2:1. The strength of a muscle varys with the angle of the joint (s)  they are attached too.

Here is an article on wrestlers. Look at pg 494, total power extension (quads) vs total power flexion (hams)
http://www.jssm.org/vol4/n4/16/v4n4-16pdf.pdf

Edited by Johnnys Zoo - 6/30/2009 at 05:14 pm GMT

When I see folks racing in the Tour De France using bikes with shocks I'll start thinking maybe bikes with shocks ARE as light, and as fast as hardtails.

honestly we are talking about mountain biking here.......Tour De France is road biking last time I checked...

Tour De france never rides on anything that isnt perfectly smooth road. With that said most carbon frames have some amount of flex that is the suspension for those bikes.

Bikes with rear shocks are heavier than FS bikes!! but weight doesnt make or break a bike. In fact if lighter was always faster why dont we race 16 lb road bike off road?

your logic is extremely flawed. Do you even Mountain Bike?  I guess mountain biking or not has nothing to with whether you get the concept that adding weight can actually be faster because alot of people still claiming to "feel" faster with out actually testing anything.

I love it when i get quoted, then what i said is COMPLETELY ignored...

You will never ever see a full suspension' TDF bike. Ever. You win.

You also won't see a front suspension bike, so ditch that fork. you won't see any steel or aluminum frames, so upgrade to carbon fiber, no one will win on 26" wheels so get some 700c rims, get rid of the granny ring, and the upright bars and the knobby tires, ditch the camelback and tool kit/ spare tube. Shave your legs, get your body weight down to below 140 lbs... enjoy Mountain biking on an asphalt road.

OK  OK!   Fair enough folks.  Faster off road <> faster on road.  I get it

Off road (and on?) weight mostly matters as the % that you have to travel going uphill for the most part.    Off road, I'm going to favor comfort as long as it doesn't affect maneuverability too much.  For a ride the lift uphill and balls out downhill give me all the travel you've got  If I've got to make it move a lot using my legs I'm probably going to still prefer a hard tail, even if it is mostly psychological-thinking the squish is somehow negating my pedal down somewhat.  WR, do many of your customers raise that objection?  It might be just me.  Thinking rationally I'd think that the shock(s) could be stiff enough not to squish when pedaling and still suck up bumps at high speed, but in the back of my mind I'll still have the doubts.

Oh and by the way in case anyone hasn't noticed the bike I ride is older than most of my skis.  But, it was kind of nice in 1985.  Yes, it's a hard tail.  I rode a shock bike in 1977-79.  I modified it quite a bit too, laid the rear shocks down to about 45 *s ffrom 60* for example.   I'm sure they've changed quite a bit.

We've got a 'strange' customer base here in northern VT. I don't really notice until I leave and ride somewhere more 'metropolitan', that people here ride REALLY nice bikes, for the most part.

Our local riding is pretty gnarly compared to some other places I've ridden, it's not 'big drops' or stunts or anything, just fast singletrack covered in wet roots. Short steep roll-ins and short but steep uphills that are also covered in wet, slippery roots. Lots of bermed corners and rolling grade dips that can be used as jumps and doubled up... basically, the faster you go the harder it gets.

Riders can be sorted into two groups... those with gears and those without.

Riders on bikes with gears are riding nice full suspension bikes, around here Santa Cruz Blur LT2's are probably most common. Riders without gears are riding either Karate Monkey's or dirt jump style bikes (big BMX...).

Riding a full suspension does take an adjustment in style, standing up and mashing the pedals will result in some movement which will feel inefficient. The key is to learn to spin circles with your feet/ pedals... this is how you 'should' ride anyway, it's by far more efficient than standing and hammering. You will pretty quickly realize that you are pedaling in places you couldn't on a hardtail, that you are going faster downhill with way more control and that you can climb up rough uphills becuase the roots and rocks don't stop your momentum or cause you to lose traction. I honestly feel that suspension helps me most on technical climbs not on downhills, I can stay loose and ride a fully rigid MTB (I did for 10 years) fast on downhills, heck I've got at least 24" of 'suspension' from my arms and legs, but going uphill over really rough terrain? How do you 'stay loose' and pedal hard at the same time? Sure it can be done... but not by me. Getting my first full suspension bike was like the first time I skied on shape skis, it was a "you've got to be kidding me, I really can buy performance and ability" moment, actually it was more so.

*yes, bikes with shocks have been improved a bit since 1977. Quite a bit, actually.

well its called propedal or whatever speak that company calls it.

Basically low speed bound is set pretty stiff but the instant it hits something hard the high speed bound is pretty soft. bound is how fast a shock move into its stroke where as rebound is how fast(or slow) it moves out of its stroke.

also suspension like DW link(but nothing else) have anti squat built into the way the suspension moves not just the shock. A DW link bike with light propedal can actaully be pedalled standing pretty effectively.

the last thing you want on a FS bike is an overly stiff rear. If you going to get suspension you might as well use all of it.

and 1985? are you fuggin kidding me? The last 10 years bikes have become so much better than before.

call up whiteroom or marsholson and gets yourself a new bike.

Just go ride. If you get out there and ride enough you will NEED a new bike eventually, parts wear out, things get broken, what ever. If you ride you will see what folks in your local are using for bikes, pay attention, ask some questions at the trail head or on the trail. When you feel like it, stop by a bike shop and see if hey have a demo program. They should at least let you pedal some bikes around in the parking lot... see what you think. You very well may prefer hard tail bikes (and that very well might be what's best for what you like to do)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with hard tail mountain bikes, if that's what you have go ride it. Ride whatever makes you happy because, let's face it, odds are none of us are going to make a mortgage payment by pedaling a bike around competitively... so enjoy whatever you have or what you like.

(even if it is slower).