Difference in skill level

How large is the difference between someone who plays off 6 and a 0 handicap player? Is it the same as btw. the 6 hcp and 12 hcp?

What are the features of their game that make all the difference?

Just interested and  want to  know the opinions of more experienced golfers.

I'm a 13 and play with a friend that is a scratch.  The difference in our abilities is not really that much, and we regularly hit exactly the same shots.  I often match him hole for hole for a few, but he is amazingly consistent, both in hitting the shots he wants and sinking putts.  He doesn't really hit unbelievable shots, he just hits the shots most of us can make, but he does it unbelievably consistently.  My experience with my friend leads me to think that the difference you are talking about between a 6 and a 0 is almost all mental.  On the other hand, I believe the pros have skills that a 0 handicapper does not possess.  They practice weird shots along with the regular ones so they have them when they might need them.

Great input, mudfoot.

This is exactly what i noted when playing with my 10hcp friend. I'm 20 BTW. 

When you look at a score card, there is a handycap for each hole.

I cannot remember the right way, but 1, or 18 is the hardest hole. if its 18, then 1 is the easiest hole on the course.

I do not know how handycaps work for scoring though. I just play and have a good time. I wish I was more consistant though.

There are many different aspects of the game that could contribute to the 6 stroke difference in handicaps. Lots of aspects can contribute 1-2 strokes at that level:

course management

course/conditions awareness

club fitting

bag management (having a well chosen set of clubs)

ball management ( choosing the right ball for your game and the course/conditions)

shot inventory (how many different kinds of shots you have available to choose from)

fitness

emotional management

being one club longer off the tee

being a 3% better putter (by # strokes)

being a 20% better pitcher/chipper (by distance to the hole)

There are some who argue that a single handicap is misleading, that one should have handicaps for driving, irons, pitching, chipping, sand shots and putting. Check out Dave Pelz's Short Game Bible!

Despite Mudfoot's experience, it's highly unlikely that there is just one reason for the 6 shot difference.  Consistency is the most noticeable, but that can come from many different sources.

You also need to be careful what you're looking at. As a 12 handicap I think I putt as good or better than a scratch golfer if you had us both putting from the same location head to head. But I'm well aware a scratch golfer makes fewer putts per round than I do because their approach shots, pitches and chips are all better than mine.

Earlier this season I almost started a thread concerning Personal Golf Growth.

I feel like I should be a lot better at this stage of my golf experience, but others I golf with seem to think that I'm making progress at a decent pace.

As theRusty says, there are some significant things that come into play with my personal growth(or lack thereof) but not seems to be as powerful as the mind.

I've been really trying to focus on the Sports Diamond in my golf game, which has helped on some occasions.  

After all Squatty put me on Time Out in the Touch corner and he hasn't given me permission to come out of the corner yet...

So, this leads me to this....

Some days I feel as though I can outplay any of my "better" friends in one part of the game or another, but I rarely get the sum of my game to come together.

Welcome to the club for mere mortals.

I offered to help ya out Trek Chick. =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trekchick 

 

So, this leads me to this....

Some days I feel as though I can outplay any of my "better" friends in one part of the game or another, but I rarely get the sum of my game to come together.

 

 

I once heard it said that if you started the season as say a 20 handicap and practiced  and played  a couple times a week and maybe took a lesson here or there to correct large swing flaws, you can pretty easily shave that 20 to a 10 in a season if you are at least a bit dedicated. 

However, to get from a 10 to  5  much harder and takes much more playing and practice.  To get from 5 to scratch is even more intense.  you have to live at the course.

I'm not sure how true that is, but I see the logic.

skier_J, that makes perfect sense after seeing how the game can get in your head.

talyn.....I have a golf pro that I work with a couple times a year to get a tune up, but thanks for the offer.

If you want to meet up to play round some time, let me know.

Handicaps are an indication of your potential and realistically you should only play to your handicap about 20% of the time.

The pyramid for improving your handicap is steep.

For men here are a few cumulative statistics (from the USGA):

0 or better   0.68% of attain this level

5                  6.83%

10                25.10%

15                52.32%

20                75.45%

For Women the same statistics

0 or better    0.8%

5                  0.64%

10                2.7%

15                8.77%

20                20.58%

Reducing your index is generally a difficult task taking time, effort guidance and dedication. If you want to improve your scores and reduce your index spend at least 50% of your practice time working on the 100 yards and closer shots including putting.

To explore handicapping go to the USGA's website

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping.aspx?id=7792

Thanks for your input, mikewil. I measure my own progress in geological time. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikewil 

Handicaps are an indication of your potential and realistically you should only play to your handicap about 20% of the time.

 

The pyramid for improving your handicap is steep.

 

For men here are a few cumulative statistics (from the USGA):

 

0 or better   0.68% of attain this level

5                  6.83%

10                25.10%

15                52.32%

20                75.45%

 

For Women the same statistics

 

0 or better    0.8%

5                  0.64%

10                2.7%

15                8.77%

20                20.58%

 

Reducing your index is generally a difficult task taking time, effort guidance and dedication. If you want to improve your scores and reduce your index spend at least 50% of your practice time working on the 100 yards and closer shots including putting.

 

To explore handicapping go to the USGA's website

 

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping.aspx?id=7792

 I have had this drilled into me before. Thanks for the reminder.

Coaching has to be a factor for improvement gains that come more quickly  with application  through practice.

With guidance our practice will provide much of the skills needed to meet our goals. Practice, practice, practice.  Then ,like skiing ,shut up and play when you get on the course.

It's a maddening game.

Bob Hope famously quipped, "I'm known throughout the world for my short game.  Unfortunately, it's off the tee".

The short game or lack thereof is the great equalizer.  The uncanny ability of the touring pros to get it up and down from everywhere puts them several plateaus above those of us who should be glad we don't rely on the game to make a living.

I took up golf at age 40 and became addicted.  In 1993 I got divorced at the age of 47 and started playing five days a week.  Over the next two years my HC got progressively lower and at the lowest was 5.8.  I remarried in 2001 and it rose to a 12.  As of yesterday's GHIN revision, it's at 8.4.  I know that the only way I can get it back down is to play a LOT more and I just don't have time.  There are players out there who can stay away from the game for a lengthy period of time and not see a deterioration of their skills.  I'm not one of them.  If I had the time I'd focus on putting and shots inside 50 yards.

Someone discussed course handicapping.  I can clear up one common misconception.  A few years back I was the handicap chairman at my home course and was given the task of rehandicapping the holes.  I assumed that the most difficult hole should automatically be the number 1 handicap hole.  When I studied the USGA guidelines I learned that the number 1 handicap hole is the hole where a high handicapper most needs help when playing a low handicapper and that's not necessarily the most difficult hole.  At the course in question, I crunched the results of 40,000 rounds and discovered that the number 1 handcapped hole should be # 16 instead of #14 as it had been ranked for years.  14 was indeed a difficult hole but it was difficult for everyone.  #16 is a dogleg left that requires a carry of 170 yards over a creek.  From there it's just a wedge shot into the green.  The higher handicappers wouldn't even try to carry the creek and wound up playing the hole as a par 5.  Obviously they needed that extra stroke.

I met a guy recently who described himself as a "recovering golfer".  I don't ever want to become one of those!

yea, we can go golfing soon trish.

we can see how good your pro trains ya. =)

Amen. I read somewhere that you have to play golf for 20 years before you earn the right to call it a stupid game.

In my experience (current index 3.8) the people I play with who are at scratch have enough length to all but guarantee a few birdies every round. It's a lot harder to make 18 pars than 14 pars, 2 bogies and two birdies. I can par a course to death on a good day, but birdies for me are not an everyday thing. Everyone makes a bogie here and there, even the pros. How often does someone on tour have a bogie free round?

Yea, they make it though quite a bit, but they sure do fall appart somedays.

Some of the courses that the civi's play are way diff then pro courses. I could rock and roll on some of the courses they play on. They dont have huge f-off trees to shoot though, or dog legs at 100 yards out with with trees guarding the 90 degree turn, then 400 yards to go after that.

Yeah sure. Torrey Pines and Bethpage Black are great examples of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevesmith7 

 Everyone makes a bogie here and there, even the pros. How often does someone on tour have a bogie free round?

Well, it does depend on the course and conditions, but it's fair to say that a large majority of pro tournament rounds played are not bogey free. Still, it's fairly rare round where someone is not bogey free unless it's a major. But one of the factors here is that pros need to shoot birdies to win. Sometimes it's a lot easier to play for par and not get bogeys than to play for birdies and get occasional bogeys. This is not meant to necessarily conflict with your 18 pars is hard comment. It's just that sometimes playing for the center of the green and 2 putting is easier than shooting for the pin and being aggressive on long putts.

 

I had the good fortune to play in yesterday's St. Jude Pro Am with one of the lesser known pros. It's my third Pro Am with the other two being 30 years ago. Yesterday was great fun with my favorite 17 year old on the bag. It was also a reminder of the differences between the tour pro and the good amateur.

Our pro had made only 4 or 5 cuts in 16 tries this year. His average drive was over 10 yards short of the tour's average length drive. He's averaging about 71 per round this year according to tour stats. He played the back tees and we played the middle tees.

Our "A" player, a true 4 handicapper, who could not score within 4 of the pro even with the 20, 30 and 40 yard spots off the tee. The pro shot about even par with a birdie and a bogey. He did not miss a drive, never in trouble off the tee, hit almost every green in regulation and made one putt all day. My point is the pro spotted the the good amateur probably 400 yards off the tee, had a poor day on the greens and still beat the good amateur by a double hand full.

Bobby Jones said there is golf and there is tournament golf. I think he was talking primarily about the mental side of the game.

My point is there is US and THEM and although some of our numbers look similar to theirs the reality is there is no comparison, none - zilch - nada - not a chance!

Actually there is US, THEM, the TOP FIVE plus WHOEVER IS HOT THAT WEEK and then there is TIGER.

I have nothing but respect for thte skill level of tour players but the question was about the differrence between a 6 and a 0. Although pros don't even carry a h'cap isn't Tiger something like a +12 if you do the math?

You know the cool thing about this sport is that on any one shot mere mortals have a chance to equal or better a pro. (Ok - for some of us that shot won't be a driver.)  But you're right that at the end of the day there is no chance. It is awesome to watch a pro consistently hit shots you can't even dream about and then dream anyway. I think the "tournament" concept applies to lots of sports. Tiger does get beat occasionally. I thought Tiger was about a +8, but here's my take on the math: the back tees at Torrey are 78+, add 3-4 strokes for the tournament and US Open setup, figure Tiger averaged 71 - so 10-12 is in the neighborhood. Lest we forget though that Rocco was even with Tiger after 90 holes. Sometimes WHOEVER IS HOT THAT WEEK is almost as good as Tiger (when he's crippled). Damn - I almost got that out with a straight face.

That's the addictive nature of the sport. You get the feel of a pro when you hit a great shot. Knowing you can makes you feel you are only a swing away from another. And you may be but the consistancy is so difficult to maintain on all the levels your mind takes you in a golf shot. Then you can do all but one aspect perfectly and still duff the ball.

You have to put it all together which makes me admire great golfers even more.

I remember a couple of years ago when that deal the two private club in FL play as an interclub championship (Lake Nona vs ??) went to sudden death. The announcers had a lot of time to fill as there was only one group in the playoff. Tiger had shot something like 68 in the first 18 and they were saying from the tees they were playing from it was rated 78.x and 15X something slope. Shooting 68 on 78 and 150 is a +13.

Does the slope factor in for those guys? I was just reading that slope is determined by the difference in rating for a scratch golfer and a bogey golfer. It shouldn't make a difference to a scratcher.

Stevesmith7

Back to the original question, I think it depends, which is not really an answer at all. I've probably had a legitimate handicap for 40 years. I've know some guys who could shoot the score that was within a few strokes of their handicap on almost any course almost every time While other guys with similar experience and handicaps would be all over the map over and under the "average". Some are greatly affected by different courses while others can shoot their handicap regardless. I don't think that one answer fits all situations, but the fact that golfers have hanidcaps gives us another great way to compete that is not available in most other sports.

The saying always goes, and why we dont play as good as pro's.

Drive for Show, putt for Dough.

Most of us golfers 2 put, but we are on in 2.

Even my dad gets on in 2 on a lot of the longer holes, and i outdrive him by 50+ yards.
But we all 2 or 3 put when we get there, which gives us a disadvantage to the pro's.

=)

For some very interesting reading on handicapping go here:

http://www.popeofslope.com/index.html

Played today with young asst pro at Home Course (my home course and a PGA run course near Tacoma WA).   I play to a 13 handicap, and shot off the blue tee 3rd of 5 sets.  He hit off the blacks 4 of 5.  He is 35 years my junior .  I could hit a drive to about the same area, and I putted well for me 31.  Approach shots were an education and the par 3s' of course. 

He would be going for the green from 220 (lots of bunkers on this course) I'm laying up for a for a pitch or chip.  When the counting was done he was -3 old guy +16.  I HAD FEWER PUTTS THOUGH! 

Oh ya the course record at two lengths is held by a 14 year old.