Seeking Binding Input

I just purchased a new pair of Coombas and am seeking a little info on what bindings to put on them.  I have a little time to choose because my ski season is over and I am not going to South America!  I am 61 years with over 30 years ski experience so I have some good ideas, but just wanted some additional input.  I already have one pair of powder skis (Scott p4 with Marker 14 bindings) and "all mountain" skis (MetronB5 with Neox 412's); but I had long wanted some Coombas and saw a good price and went for it.  Now the details: (1) 99% percent of my skiing is lift served terrain, but I like to ski off piste.  I very occasionally (very rarely) will take a little hike somewhere away from the top of the chair unloading area.  (2) I love skiing trees and bowls and actively seek out off trail powder stashes.  My wife will ski down the run and I will ski between the runs looking for untracked areas.  (3) Given a choice I will probably not ski a groomed run if there is decent powder adjacent, although I will avoid crud like the plague.  (4) Given my age and weight my DIN is 6.75 (P4's) to 8 (Metrons).  Now, I am thinking the Marker 12.0 Free (3-12 DIN) is an adequate choice although I haven't ruled out Barons or Griffons.  I have ruled out Duke's and Jester's as being too heavy and I don't need that much binding.   Given the newer binding designs for wider skis what about other brands that would work?  I've looked at Salomen STH 12, Tyrolia Peak 12 and 15 series and their clones.  The Coomba has a 102 waist so brake width is a consideration.

Your input would be greatly appreciated!  Thanks

I mounted the Look P12ti on my Coombas. See: http://www.backcountryoutlet.com/outlet/DYN0179/Look-PX12-TI-Lifter-Wide-Legend-Ski-Binding.html?CMP_ID=SH_FRO002&CMP_SKU=DYN0179&mv_pc=r126

Be sure to get the Ti version with the 100mm brake.

Another good binding is the Head Mojo 15: http://www.levelninesports.com/head-mojo-ski-bindings-matte-blacksilver-p-4275.html this has a 97mm brake that will fit the Coomba with a little stretching of the brakes arms.

Michael

Ditto on the Mojo recc.  The Tyrolia Peak 15 is the twin of the Mojo 15, and comes in white, which would look good on the Coombas.  They have been on www.tramdock.com/ for $150 recently.   Very good bindings.

Unless you intend to use an 8+ DIN setting I wouldn't bother with a DIN 15 binding.  They are overkill, heavier and will put you in the bottom 1/3 of the DIN setting range (supposedly not recommended).  A DIN 12 binding like the Peak/Mojo 12's will be a bit lighter (2,100g/pr vs. how much more for the 15's I don't know) and are available for about $160ish.  I use the essentially identical LD12's on my Watea 84's and they work great, though they have a slightly narrower brake (94mm) which seems to contribute to why these are the killer deal (I paid $100 a year ago) if only you didn't need the wider brake....

Better still, why not save some big time weight and consider the Salomon Z12ti's - they are 1,700g, are available for about $150 on the 'net, and come with a 100mm brake so they will clear the Coomba's without any fuss.  Sure they seem underbuilt and don't have the diagonally releasing heel of the Tyrolia, but the feedback here is that they work fine (I don't own 'em but am considering 'em for my next skis).  Note that the nearly identical STH12's are heavier (2,000g) and much pricier (a quick search shows they go for $220ish), though perhaps this extra weight means they will be more durable - dunno

The Griffon's are also fairly light (1,900g) and highly praised for their wide ski-specific design, but the 110mm brake version doesn't seem to be currently available for less than the $220's (vs. the $170ish price I've seen recently for 90mm version).  If price is not the main issue these might be the best pick (and the first choice for my next powder skis if I can get 'em at a good price).  Note that the M12.0 Free's are very heavy (2,500g+ near as I can tell), fairly pricey and without any reason to recommend them over the other picks above uless you like argyle.

Finally, I have the PX12's on my Gotama's, and they are very heavy (2,400g) and difficult to use (hard to get in and out of, and a pain to adjust).  Sure they have the best rep for release reliability but I (130lbs, DIN 6.75, and also an off-piste skier but not gonzo) can't say that this is very noticable (or even real) to make them worth the extra weight and poor ergonomics.  I don't intend to buy 'em again, atleast until they address my concerns.  BTW - Surprisingly the Ti version doesn't help with the weight (they appear to be slightly heavier). 

Happy hunting and good luck

Quote:

Originally Posted by ski-ra 

A DIN 12 binding like the Peak/Mojo 12's will be a bit lighter (2,100g/pr vs. how much more for the 15's I don't know)

Peak 15 and Mojo 15 (Aero toe) are 2280g/pair.  Peak 12 (LD toe) are 2040g/pair, and Mojo 12 are 2140g/pair.  Peak 11 (SL toe) are 1600g/pair, and Mojo 11 are 1710g/pair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpinedad 

 

Peak 15 and Mojo 15 (Aero toe) are 2280g/pair.  Peak 12 (LD toe) are 2040g/pair, and Mojo 12 are 2140g/pair.  Peak 11 (SL toe) are 1600g/pair, and Mojo 11 are 1710g/pair.

Thanks for the data and I didn't know there was a difference between the Peak and Mojo 12's.... 

Anywho, like I said the 12's are only "...a bit lighter" than the 15's.  My bigger concern would be running a DIN 7 on a binding with a 5 to 15 range, though I imagine it would be OK even if not ideal.  OTOH, I have SLD-11's on another pair of skis and I think they are much more-cheaply constructed than the 12's.  In looking at bindings in the past few years I've concluded that most DIN 11 bindings are not meant for "serious" use and will avoid them for now even though my DIN setting would say otherwise.  While I could be wrong, I'd rather go the route of the Z12ti's to save weight than buy another pair of DIN 11 bindings. 

The way Tyrolia sets up the springs, you'd probably be OK (there is a fair amount of loading before they get to the low number on the scale). 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ski-ra 

 

My bigger concern would be running a DIN 7 on a binding with a 5 to 15 range, though I imagine it would be OK even if not ideal. 

If you're not carrying those skis on a backpack or skinning with them, why do you care how much the bindings weigh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

If you're not carrying those skis on a backpack or skinning with them, why do you care how much the bindings weigh.

Never understood this obsession myself. Skis or Bikes 

Performance, durability, confidence.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

If you're not carrying those skis on a backpack or skinning with them, why do you care how much the bindings weigh.

All things being equal I'd rather have a lighter than heavier binding/ski setup (I've definitively demo'd some ski/binding combo's that have felt like lead boots).  Otherwise I agree that the weights discussed above really aren't that big a deal (i.e. the difference in weight between the Z12ti's and PX12's is only about 1lb per ski).  In fact I like the Tyrolia/Head LD12 variants despite the fact that they're hardly the lightest - they work great and usually can be found for a great price.  OTOH finding these with wide-enough brakes can be more challenging than the Z12ti's or Griffons, that's why I was focusing on those too (not just because of the weight).  Cool?

Quote:

Originally Posted by skier219 

The way Tyrolia sets up the springs, you'd probably be OK (there is a fair amount of loading before they get to the low number on the scale). 

 

Sounds good to me - I guess I'll simplify my recommendation to something like it probably doesn't make sense to pay the same or more for a DIN 15 binding when your DIN setting is a better fit for a DIN 12 binding.  OTOH, being the tight-wad that I am, paying less for the DIN 15 binding might be something to consider....

Get 30 DINs and crank em. Works every time...

jk, +1 on the Mojo rec. A DIN 12 binder should be fine unless you plan on dropping cliffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rossi Smash 

 

Never understood this obsession myself. Skis or Bikes 

It's called "OCD" - you got a problem with it?  Yeah, I've paid the price for some "stupid-light" gear on my bikes, like the time my rear uber-light MTB wheel started breaking spokes about 10 miles away from any sign of civilization or my car - it can be a very bad obsession indeed....

I would feel the extra two pounds on a bike (and the extra ten around my middle) every time I pedalled up a hill.

The extra mass on my ski bindings would provide some much needed down force, helping my skis grip the snow, and providing extra acceleration down the hill.  The only movement I force my skis through, unless I get caught out of position, is pivoting them about their long axis and the bindings are right there, so not too much additional rotational inertia would be added if you ask me.  Now if the binding could only be made with fewer plastic, and fewer moving parts.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

I would feel the extra two pounds on a bike (and the extra ten around my middle) every time I pedalled up a hill.

 

The extra mass on my ski bindings would provide some much needed down force, helping my skis grip the snow, and providing extra acceleration down the hill.  The only movement I force my skis through, unless I get caught out of position, is pivoting them about their long axis and the bindings are right there, so not too much additional rotational inertia would be added if you ask me.  Now if the binding could only be made with fewer plastic, and fewer moving parts.....

but that's exactly it. 99% of us could stand to drop way more weight than the 2 lbs on the bike or the 1 lb. of ski/binding weight.

200lb rider plus 17lb bike= 217lbs and reliability issues?

185lb rider plus 20lb bike=205lbs, huge performance increase and durability

Simple......

Quote:

Originally Posted by ski-ra 

 

The Griffon's are also fairly light (1,900g) and highly praised for their wide ski-specific design, but the 110mm brake version doesn't seem to be currently available for less than the $220's .

 

Edited by ski-ra - 4/29/2009 at 12:40 am GMT

I've got a new in the box pair w/ 110 mm brake that I would let go for under $200 if you decide to go this route.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree30 

 

I've got a new in the box pair w/ 110 mm brake that I would let go for under $200 if you decide to go this route.
 

I guess the OP found a better deal (or better advice elsewhere)...maybe I should consider getting my next powder skis sooner than planned....

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rossi Smash 

 

but that's exactly it. 99% of us could stand to drop way more weight than the 2 lbs on the bike or the 1 lb. of ski/binding weight.

 

200lb rider plus 17lb bike= 217lbs and reliability issues?

185lb rider plus 20lb bike=205lbs, huge performance increase and durability

 

Simple......

Uh oh, your're unwittingly pushing one of my buttons here, RS. Consider this example (mtb weights, not road, 'cause that's mostly what I know):

125lb rider (me, well into the bike season) + 30lb bike ... bike is 25% of my weight

200lb rider + 30lb bike ... bike is 15% of his weight

If you are 200lbs and don't think that's a huge difference, try riding a bike that's 25% of your weight - i.e., a 50lb bike!

At my size, I have absolutely the opposite reaction here. I feel like most bike stuff is way overbuilt for me, with too much of an emphasis on standing up to Clydesdale use or abuse.

Ski-ra, back me up here!

Okay I'm down off my soapbox and it's safe to come out now.

As for ski/binding weight, I agree that's much less of a big deal. However, under most conditions I do like a lighter-weight setup. Sometime exception: high speeds on hard snow, where mass can occasionally feel reassuring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ski-ra 

 

Finally, I have the PX12's on my Gotama's, and they are very heavy (2,400g) and difficult to use (hard to get in and out of, and a pain to adjust).  Sure they have the best rep for release reliability but I (130lbs, DIN 6.75, and also an off-piste skier but not gonzo) can't say that this is very noticable (or even real) to make them worth the extra weight and poor ergonomics.

The short version of this post is that I am not generally prone to pre-releasing, but have nevertheless noticed a huge difference in the pre-disposition of my Tyrolias to pre-release (high) vs. that of my Looks (low).

I have used Pivot 10s and 12s (currently on my Dynastars) and agree that the ergonomics aren't the best, but it doesn't really bug me all that much. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to assume that the Pivots perform similarly to the PX12s, but I don't know that for sure. I also don't know how they are weight-wise, but I'm pretty sure they're a lot lighter than the 03-04 Tyrolias that were on my Fischer RCs.

What I definitely DO notice, FOR SURE, is that the Looks definitely release less frequently at a given DIN setting. I have had them checked at a shop with a torque tester several times, so I assume they and my other bindings are in spec. The Pivot 10s I had for a year I never once came out of. My current pair of 12s I have been skiing in for two full seasons - so, probably about 25 days on that particular set of bindings, as I use these skis about 60% of the time. I was actually getting quite concerned because I had NEVER released in them, either. I wasn't sure that I should have, but on the other hand in that same period of time I probably came out of my Tyrolia's, which were set a full point higher due to previous pre-release issues, at least a half dozen times. Finally I took a dramatic spill near the end of the season and did pop out - after what I could feel was a significant amount of resistance - so I feel a bit somewhat better about it now. Obviously these are bindings that anyone who has a history of pre-release issues would love. In my case, I've dropped the DIN by half a point to see if I start pre-releasing. If I do, I'll put them back up, but why set them higher than you really need?

Thanks for your input.  I purchased the 12.0 Free from Marker, but just today I found the Griffin with the 110mm brake at REI for $160 so I ordered them.  Sorry I hadn't been following the thread.  I originally watched for a day or two and actually searched some of the earlier recommended bindings.  Then several days went by and there were no new posts...but today when I looked there were several posts and good info.  I have the Marker 12.0 Free's, brand new in a box if anyone wants them for $125 plus postage I'll be glad to work something out.  A PM would work best I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qcanoe 

 

 

The short version of this post is that I am not generally prone to pre-releasing, but have nevertheless noticed a huge difference in the pre-disposition of my Tyrolias to pre-release (high) vs. that of my Looks (low).

 

I have used Pivot 10s and 12s (currently on my Dynastars) and agree that the ergonomics aren't the best, but it doesn't really bug me all that much. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to assume that the Pivots perform similarly to the PX12s, but I don't know that for sure. I also don't know how they are weight-wise, but I'm pretty sure they're a lot lighter than the 03-04 Tyrolias that were on my Fischer RCs.

 

What I definitely DO notice, FOR SURE, is that the Looks definitely release less frequently at a given DIN setting. I have had them checked at a shop with a torque tester several times, so I assume they and my other bindings are in spec. The Pivot 10s I had for a year I never once came out of. My current pair of 12s I have been skiing in for two full seasons - so, probably about 25 days on that particular set of bindings, as I use these skis about 60% of the time. I was actually getting quite concerned because I had NEVER released in them, either. I wasn't sure that I should have, but on the other hand in that same period of time I probably came out of my Tyrolia's, which were set a full point higher due to previous pre-release issues, at least a half dozen times. Finally I took a dramatic spill near the end of the season and did pop out - after what I could feel was a significant amount of resistance - so I feel a bit somewhat better about it now. Obviously these are bindings that anyone who has a history of pre-release issues would love. In my case, I've dropped the DIN by half a point to see if I start pre-releasing. If I do, I'll put them back up, but why set them higher than you really need?

I'm curious -- what's your ability level, height/weight, DIN, and how many overall releases (normal and pre) are you talking about?  Just to get an idea of the database.  Forward pressure is set correctly, right?

I have skied hundreds of days on Look PX and various Tyrolia/Head LD/Peak/Mojo bindings over the last few years, and have had no pre-releases and can remember exactly one event where (thankfully) the skis popped off when they should have.  That happened when skiing at high speed into a ~ 2 ft high obstruction hidden under powder.  The heel pieces let go effortlessly, with loud clicks, before I even knew what happened.  Those were LD-12s.  BTW, I run a DIN of 8.5 @ 6'1" and 195 lbs, BSL=325mm.

If I weigh the many hundreds/thousands of hours of skiing with no releases against the one time the bindings released effortlessly like they were supposed to, it leads me to conclude that the Tyrolia LD/Peak/Mojo bindings are very reliable and not prone to pre-release.  That's a lot of hours of aggressive skiing, and probably 3-4 crashes per season where the skis stayed on.  If the Tyrolias had pre-release issues, I think I would have noticed that for sure compared to the Looks.  But they have both been bulletproof in my experience.

Another generally happy customer of both Look and Tyrolia, here.

But every variety has its downside.

I found that my Look P14s developed some lateral slop over time, even with proper forward pressure.

I understand that Tyrolias may be particularly susceptible to improperly set forward pressure.  Mine has always been proper, and I've had zero issues, on both the LD series (I have one pair on Railflexes) and Aero/Race series (I have two pairs of d10 FF17s and one pair of Mojo 15s in current service).

I found that Salomons with a single toe wing adjustment screw were not reliable for me over time.  I haven't used Salomons with independent toe wing adjustments, so I can't speak to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skier219 

 

I'm curious -- what's your ability level, height/weight, DIN, and how many overall releases (normal and pre) are you talking about?  Just to get an idea of the database.  Forward pressure is set correctly, right?

 

Hi 219. On re-reading my post, I realize I left what is probably an incorrect impression. Instead of saying "pre-disposition of my Tyrolias to pre-release (high)", I should have said "pre-disposition of my Tyrolias to release (high)". Some of my release experiences with those were definitely appropriate ones - like when I tangled with a GS gate back in January. I looked three gates back up the hill from my self-conscious position in the snow and saw my ski wrapped up in the banner and one of the poles snapped.

All I'm saying is that I did pre-release occasionally on my Tyrolias - even after getting my shop to agree to nudging the DIN setting up a point - and never have on my Looks, despite similar amounts of snow time on each. There are a lot of imponderables, though, such as, I probably skied faster and more aggressively on my race skis (that had the Tyrolias). Hardly a science experiment. Uncharacteristically for me, I don't actually remember the exact model - maybe FF 13+ something-or-other from 03-04? Gold and silver, mounted on an older flex plate on my RCs (not Railflex). I got them used several years ago. They were quite worn by the time I sold them this year. Maybe that was a factor??

As for forward pressure - as a somewhat fussy bike mechanic I'm kind of embarassed to say this - I honestly don't know. I have a shop I trust and figure they must be doing it right.   [Self image takes a reality adjustment here.] I do notice that binding companies make it hard to find technical info on how to adjust their products, and shops aren't interested in sharing, no doubt for legal reasons.

To answer your first set of questions, I am 130+ lbs in the winter, 5' 7", level 8, nominal DIN setting 6. I ski strongly but fairly smoothly and like to keep my skis on the ground. I skied on my Tyrolias for four seasons (mostly at DIN 7) and came out probably eight or ten times, including three or four occasions that I perceived as pre-releases, the rest clearly not. I've been on two different instances of the Look pivots - a 10 and a 12 - for three seasons (at DIN 6) on my other skis, including exactly one well-warranted release and zero pre-releases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qcanoe 

 

 

Uh oh, your're unwittingly pushing one of my buttons here.....At my size, I have absolutely the opposite reaction here. I feel like most bike stuff is way overbuilt for me, with too much of an emphasis on standing up to Clydesdale use or abuse.

 

Ski-ra, back me up here!

I AGREE 100%.  I'm a bit less concerned about this issue with bindings since the weight of a lighter DIN 12 binding (what I use) is generally not that much more than than the cheapo DIN 10's & 11's out there (the binding I theoretically should use given my DIN setting).  Bikes (mainly frames) are also usually overbuilt for me, but I'm pretty tough on them and find myself looking for light but not the lightest (they're making some real light stuff these days and some of it is an accident waiting to happen).  Skis are  where I really get excited about this issue (too few expert skis are built for our weight and most lesser skis don't cut it), don't get me going...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilbur 

Thanks for your input.  I purchased the 12.0 Free from Marker, but just today I found the Griffin with the 110mm brake at REI for $160 so I ordered them..... 

Cool good choice - enjoy 'em and the Coombas...uh in how many months....