Bad Rotation (video)

Whats the point in pulling the inside ski back? I was thaught this drill back in the early 2000 as a way of getting rid of excess tip lead. I did not like the drill very much but I did a demo of it back in 2007. The demo is offline at the moment and I cannot find it on this computer so I will have to search for it on some hard discs back home later this week and upload it to vimeo. Its not really instructor cool, nice sunglasses are way cooler , but its deffinetly a drill worth knowing.

Here is the whole video clip. Im tipping my skis on edge using various techniques such as angulation, inside leg flexion, ancle tipping, femure rotation, counter etc. not in this order though. Here is the video:

BigE, what would you say is wrong with the BAD form turn and how would you fix it?

I personally have the experiance that turns started with rotation, be it radical like I did on the video or more subtle, the fix would be counter and angulation. Counter for the reason that the skier would turn the belly button the other way, opposite way of rotation. Outwards. Upper and lower body separation. Angulation I would teach for the simple reason that the skier would stop banking and start pressuring the outside ski and to better cope with the turning forces and keep skis on edge. The turning forces are quite strong even at slow speeds like in the video.

So should I drop the word "angulation" all together and continue with "counter" only? I could change the video clip for the GOOD form to the one where I use only counter rotation for tipping the skis. Then I would stay in the axial plane.

The intention was not to display the difference between skidded and carved turns. I explained that many times alredy. I simply wanted to display how rotation affects carving in a bad way and it makes your skis skid. This is a common problem. Locking the skis into a edge locked carve in the high C is crusial for the outcome of the whole turn. If you dont nail the initiation and high C then there is no way you will be able to carve edge locked the whole turn. Much since the high C is already one third of the turn. Too little value is given to early edge engagement. That is the reason the skidded turns are so poor. They are not proper skidded turns. That would be a different discussion.

Shallow skidded turns can also be angulated. It has nothing to do with that actually.

My form on the video is to display the various movements. Its not proper skiing even though you could ski like that if you wanted. It all depends on how output you want. No input no output. I was watching some pros on the tenniscourt next to some intermediates. The difference in strokes was tremendous but those guys gave every ball serious attention and worked hard with back swing and footwork even before they hit the ball. The intermediates were just lazily hitting the ball and wondering why they never made it to wimbledon. Same applies to skiing. Also, you need to overdo all your movements in order to get a feel for them. Some times when you think that you flexing a lot you are actually not felxing any more than you normally do. Offcourse that is IMHO.


Quote:

TDK6,

The fix to the "bad" turns I prefer is to teach steering, separation and anticipation.  It will not result in a carved turn, but that's ok.  There is time.  Steered turns will be a big improvement over throwing the shoulder..

JASP, properly steered turns ALSO open your eyes to just how little edge it takes to make slow turns.  Steering does include an edging component, just not so much that the edge locks -- edges are kept at less than critical angle. 

I'm totally against the use of the term "falling" to teach a turn, whether or not the modifier "progressive" is used.  Students don't want to fall, and I dont' either.  I won't do angulation by falling.   

Balance against the turning forces with outside ski dominance will get you to angulation.  IMO, angulation is a by-product, not a goal in itself.  I don't create edge angles by trying to angulate more.  I create them by tipping the feet more and balancing on the outside ski.....

Fixing the bad skiing by teaching proper carving movements is one approach, and I think your video is pretty good at that.  With modern (high-sidecut, low turn radius) skis it's also a relatively easy approach.  In the days of 50-m turn radius skis, this approach required a certain, shall we say, attitude that was seldom the case for most learners.

Fixing the bad skiing by teaching proper steering movements is another approach, a completely different beast, maybe BigE can make a video for that; your video wouldn't work in that capacity (nor was it intended to).

BigE can speak for himself, but I do see the possibility of someone being annoyed at having his student's progress along the second approach being short-circuited by a jump to the the first approach.  That is, suppose someone is trying to learn how to steer without carving, and then has all those lessons BigE gave him thrown out because he jumps onto the carving is best bandwagon, and abandones steering all together, not just the "Bad Steering".  It will take that person a long time to learn to steer with lower leg rotation.

For me, I prefer your approach, TDK.  However I'm obviously no ski instructor.

The question is not about excess inside tip lead, it about OUTSIDE tip lead.  This is something we try top avoid.

BigE, in normal skiing you will never have a problem with outside ski tip leed. If you have you are doing something seriously wrong.

E, We're pretty much in agreement about blended turns and people not spending enough time developing a good blended turn. IMO it's because someone told them experts only make carved turns. You need the experience and the sufficiently developed skills sets learned in blended turns to execute good carve turns without falling into the park and ride trap. Again IMO, they never realize the "critical angle" is often far lower than they hypothesize, so they add more edge angle than is necessary thinking it is a good thing. That only locks them on an over edged ski. The proof is in watching all the aspiring skiers exaggerate these movements in a drill setting and then forget the rest of the lesson where we incorporate a refine version of the prescribed change into their free skiing. It is exactly this piece of the lesson content that is missing from TDK's video.
I'm glad you noticed my choice of words E, I purposely use the word falling because it describes an active movement of the body into the new turn but not as strong a move as would be suggested by using a word like huck, throw, thrust, or even move. It's almost passive. My point here is that you got the visual image right, even if you wouldn't say it exactly the same way. Does it require a leap of faith to consider allowing you body to fall diagonally forward? Absolutely! And it does feel like you are falling diagonally forward. Bud H here at Epic once described this as playing catch and release. Others have used the phrase "Give yourself to gravity" which is just another incarnation of this idea. BTW I've used the word falling for years and I never have a negative reaction to using it during a lesson. It isn't like I'm asking them to fall down onto the snow E. Please don't suggest that was my intent, or that my students think that's what I mean.

Balancing on the outside ski is certainly one of the goals but I do not see angulation as the only option to accomplish this outcome. Angulation certainly expands the lateral range of motion beyond what we can do with inclination alone. Does that mean for the turns TDK demonstrated inclination wouldn't have accomplished the same outcome? Without being there it's hard to say for sure but I strongly suggest it could. A friend of mine and one of my first mentors never used much, if any hip angulation and he raced on the WC. So it can be done.

One last thought on Outside ski lead during a drill, it is just that. An exercise in taking hip bias out of a skier's movements and helping them discover that they can use the rest of their joints and body parts to turn the skis. Often it is the first time they do something other than drop their hip inside the turn and park in the back seat. Beginners and intermediates who fear the fall line won't get much out of the drill since they are usually too defensive to actually "move towards the danger" as Rick would say...
 

Oh, I almost forgot E, Happy Canada Day! I'll talk to you after the fourth...

I not sure if this post makes me want to  or .  But one thing for sure is that this post in the context of this thread is rather ironic .

BigE, it maybe a bit unclear but Im talking specifically "carving" edge lock arc to arc here. The fix to carving gone bad is not teaching steering. I think we can agree on that. Interestingly enough if you skid or brush your edge lock carving turns its considered a flaw but if you look at it from a steering point of view it might be ok. IMO in this context proper steering will not be a fix to carving gone bad.

BTW, why and how do you teach anticipation? How do you teach steering?

Simulated telemark turns on alpine skis are also steered turns are they not? Also, you also used the word ALSO so the telemark simulation would add some more variety to teaching low edge angle turns. In addition it squares your hip up as JASP pointed out. Something maybe a "properly steered turn" might not do as effectively. Just a thought.....

You pritty much nail it here in this quote. You dont speak for the majority of students or instructors. You speak for your self. You have experiance and believe in what you say but if JASP and others, me included, have been using that term with success I think you should not label it as wrong. Note that also walking and running is falling forwards all the time. I also dont like falling and I almost never do but in todays skiing the word is very descriptive for what we do at turn initiation. I call it setting up the gross parameters of the turn. If you dont put yourself out of balance into the turn and wait for your skis to come arround and catch you as Bud H put it then you are not skiing effectively. Waiting for your skis to start turning before you incline and create edge angles seems like a catch22 to me. That is low end skiing by the way. Want to ramp it up let your body fall into the turn. BTW, after skiing with SL skis for a while and putting on a pair of GS or SG skis its very easy to fall inside the first turn as they dont turn quick enough. Disclaimer, in deep retraction turns the word falling might not be as good as in ILE turns where you vault over extended legs. In deep retraction turns you move your body sideways and you create the "falling" by letting your skis cross under and out to the side.

You won't do angulation by falling! No you won't. But you will be able to angulate once you have fallen enough. For example, you won't do angulation by not moving sideways will you?

This is definatley not true.  It is all about why or how the skidding or brushing is occouring....good skiing is good skiing.  The notion that what is good in one context is bad in another is ridiculous.  This is a prime example of why I have argued against this "what is your intent" idea....it is bunk.

If you are trying to carve arc to arc, but cant....and show a skid or brush, I can guarnatee you that they would not be executing a properly steered turn either.  Turning a proper steered turn into a pure carve, and vice versa is easy.....fix the way the skid or brush is generated, and not only will you give your client the power of solid steered turn, they will easily be able to execute the pure carve as well....I think this is what Big E was alluding to.

Quote: There is lots of good threads on this....do a search

Telemark turns can be steered....but they can be pure carves as well.  Yes telemark turns square the hips up,no doubt....but to suggest a properly steered turn wont be as effective makes no sense, becuase by definition, if it is "proper" the hip orientation will be perfect. 

Exactly, they can be steered or carved. Therfore a telemark turn can be useful in some form when studying steering. Or carving. Nobody suggested a properly steered turn wont be as effective. Its a matter of options. I dont use a telemark turn for any sort of parctise but Im not saying it cannot be used with success by some body else.

If we cannot find common ground with ref. to intent then its kind of useless continuing such a discussion. However, if you look at my BAD form skiing on the video, dont you think that could have been caused by rotary and banking if I was steering my turns? If you think so then I see no reason why you should not give me feedback on the video and tell me how to change it to fit your understanding.

The reason I asked about anticipation is that I would like to know how that relates to my video. I think that is highly relevant in this thread.

Yes, exactly!

If turning a steered turn into a carve and visa versa is very easy and same movements are used why cannot my video be considered ok  ?

Are you serious?

Excellent input here. In contrast to E and SD I find quite a big difference between edge locked carved turns and steered turns. However, I think they are equally important and I think that carving should not be learnt before you know how to steer. Today our jr skiers go from wedge straight to carving. I think that they are missing out on some important stuff.

So you agree then that you video is missing this important step !

Yes

Offcourse my video is missing important steps. Are you kidding. I grabbed a sequence out of a video clip and tried to show that rotation is bad for making effective carved turns. People issue DVDs in 6 full length editions and write book after book cosisting of hundreds of pages. My clip includes less than a minute of skiing and a very sparce KISS text to go along.

So what you are saying is that I need a sequence where Im also steering. Since I dont have one at hand right now could I not show the carved clip and explain the proper movements in text?

SD, what is so contradicting. In contrast to steered turns a telemark turn might be more effective in squaring up the hips. It might also be more effective in getting rid of exsess tip lead. Still, nobody said a steered turn wont be less effective. Its all up to what works for the student. There is no right and wrong. You are clearly lacking intent here SD. Your intent should be giving constructive feedback in regards to the video.

You say that learning to steer before you carve is the right path. Yet your video shows the solution to poor steering, ie steering with upper body rotation,  as carving.

This is ridiculous.

I'm done.

I think it's perfectly ok to go from bad steering to good carving.  You can still learn good steering after you know how to carve a turn.

What is so contradicting?  Well lets look at this post for yet ANOTHER example.  In your post #107 of this thread you acknowledge telemark turns can be steered or carved....you seemed to indicate that you understand telemark turns are just and exercise or drill that an instructor can use to help their students....then in this post, you somehow "contrast" (your word) steered turns to telemark!!!!


The fact that an exercise like telemark turns can be used to generate a pure carved turn or a steered turn, should tell you that the inputs (or skills) required for steered turns and the inputs (or skills) required for pure carved turns are identical...the only difference is the mix to get various ouputs.