Bad Rotation (video)

E,
I suppose to understand everyone clearly we could insist that they use terms exactly as we do. Although it reminds me of a good friend who was an English professor. Grammar was not my strong suit in school, so I was always a bit tenative when speaking around him. At one point we were sitting out on his deck and he asked me why I spoke so carefully. So I told him about being a bit self conscious about my poor grammar. He laughed for about five minutes and when he stopped he told me, You get your point across just fine and after all communication is not about the words, it's about communicating an idea.

He also shared another idea that I have tried to use, It is much more difficult to craft a lesson and present a complex idea at a six year old level than it is to craft a presentation at a college student's level. Ironically, it is the college student who will not listen as well as the six year old, so in many cases you end up using the six year old level presentation with them as well.


I think we see TDK's video similarly. Although we described it differently.

SD,
Or should we call you Merriam Webster. No, even they include more than one definition for most of what they put in their dictionary. Could that mean that there exist more than one usage and definition in use in the world. Hmmm...

From my post #60:

"My point always was, and always will be, this is a skiing website, this is a ski instructor to ski instructor forum, we should use proper ski instructor terminology.  Bringing in medical terminology, or marine terminology, or military terminology is bogus, and you know it."

Your clutching at straws here jasp........we dont need, nor should we accept all definitions in the world...this is a skiing site, for skiers, to talk about skiing....we should use ski terminology.  Sorry but anyone who comes here attempting to interject terminology from say, scuba diving is simply a troll.

PS:  by "troll", I don't mean little green mythical creatures that live under bridges

Edited by Skidude72 - 6/27/2009 at 06:07 am GMT

SD,
Epic is a skiing web site where people from around the world participate. Just like you do. However, I think you are confused and quite wrong about which sub forum you are in, INSTRUCTOR TO INSTRUCTOR is another sub forum. This is the SKI TECHNIQUE AND ANALYSIS sub forum and it is open to all who wish to participate. English as a Second Language (ESL) participants like TDK are more than welcome to post ideas here even if they do not have access to the same glossary as you. From time to time they will mis-use a term while presenting an idea but they do a good job of writing their thoughts down. Insisting that TDK, or anyone else for that matter, rigidly adhere to your rules and definitions only demonstrates your pedantic attitude and a myopic view of the ski world. In addition, your last post suggests that you are somehow speaking for Epicski.com when you say what should and shouldn't be written here. The reality is that you are only offering your opinion and you should not be representing it as anything other than your opinion.
This thread is about TDK's video, got anything to contribute besides your tedious rantings about how everyone needs to use your universal glossary of skiing terms, SD? Start a new thread if you want to debate that idea...
Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/27/2009 at 07:04 pm GMT
Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/27/2009 at 07:13 pm GMT
Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/27/2009 at 07:14 pm GMT

HAHa Keep editing JASP!

Tech and Analysis is instructor to instructor, where we can debate endlesslley about technique.  Ski technique to be exact...Yes anyone can post here, but it is the technical board.  Ski Instruction and Coaching was the less technical forums for lay people to recieve ski instruction or coaching from anybody....Ask a Pro was the same as ski instruction and coaching put only select people could answer....The beginner area was for new people to the sport to get straight simple answers.

Again, my idea was to post glossary's from all the worlds skiing bodies.  I know this will work, because as stated before, the terms are actually very similiar.   My view of skiing is not narrow at all, it is actually increadibly broad.  But anyway if you feel personal attacks are the only way to debate, that is your choice I guess. 

As for representing Epic, I think it is pretty funny you interpreted 63, as me somehow claiming that I am an official site rep, but to be clear, I was on the committee that created the split in the forums from the old single Ski Instruction forum, into the 4 we have now.

This thread is about TDK's video, got anything to contribute besides your tedious rantings about how everyone needs to use your universal glossary of skiing terms, SD? Start a new thread if you want to debate that idea...

Sadly, your response to this direct question demonstrates that you are too hung up on your ideas to focus on the subject of this thread.

This is not a misunderstanding due to language problems.

TDK wants rotation of the hips to include rotation of the hips about an external point -- of that he is quite clear.  He is also totally evasive about why he is insisting on trying to add confusion to the term.  I have seen no one use the term that way, yet he states his usage is consistent with PSIA and CSIA language.

No JASP, this is not a language issue.  This is about something else.

Empirical observation:  some things, like 3 page quibbling, niggling summer threads in the tech forum, just never change.


Question:  the 3 "agitators" departed Epic last summer to heal this forum, so why does Epic still have these threads?  Are they exerting their psychic powers to control this forum from afar ... or was there perhaps a different cause all along.

Remark:  Whatever you may think of his skiing, technique, or pedagogical skills, TDK6 is one of the few instructors on Epic to have posted video of himself.  In fact, he's posted drills, free skiing, and gates.  I'm not sure any other Bear has exposed himself to this much video scrutiny on Epic. This is admirable and worthy of emulation by other instructors. 
Any volunteers? 

TDK6,
I think the video is great.  It shows what you wanted to show.

The only complicate things.  Perhaps all you should say is pay attention to how the upper body is rotated angled, and how the skis are turned and tipped, then all you need is "Don't do this!" for the bad rotation, and "Do this!" for the moves you wish to instill. or NYET and DA, or Oui and Non,  KISS.

Ghost, thanks for your nice words on the video. Take a look at the first video, less words in there. The cometary was added at the request by memebers here.

Many debating in this thread has gotten my intentions all wrong. Im not out to feed you guys any BS, insted I posted a starting point and asked for ways of improving the video. Changing it all together if needed. My conclusion sofar is that in order to suite BigE and Skidude72s and others terminology the term "hip rotation" is not suitable in this context. So I have desided to delete it. I asked for a definition on the kind of rotation of hips where the axis is placed in front of the body but nobody could or wanted to give me any proper definition so I simply call that "hips wandering towards the outside". Its kind of like a swinging circular motion. I have made the conclusion that "hip rotation" the way its definded buy you guys is not really a big issue in skiing. Upper body rotation is the more common "bad rotation" and the one Im displaying as bad and wrong in my video. If you dissagree and what to tweek the video please give me constructive feedback. If you just want to rant, please do so.

TDK6,

I had a nice reply, but hit the wrong button. Stupid Clear button does not have an "are you sure?" dialog box to idiot proof my intent.

The video contrasts tipping and angulation vs upper body rotation and inclination.  Notice how each and every turn in the low edge angle turns begins with a rotation of the upper body.  This suggests that the upper body rotation is a required component for inclined turns. It is not.

Instead of upper body rotation, you could use lower body rotation and steer/pivot the skis. (Actively rotate the femurs in the hip sockets).  Then you would be comparing tipping vs steering/pivotting : "Turning the feet" vs "tipping the ski".  Such a contrast would show turns being skidded using leg steering vs turns being carved by ski tipping.

Right now, the turns are too far apart to be fruitfully compared -- there are too many ways to get from the poorly rotated turns to the angulated turns you display. And, it ignores the middle ground.....

If the intent is to get away from the upper body rotation, then the steered version should be compared to the rotated version.  This builds upper and lower body separation and independence.  Tipping and angulation shows another form of upper/lower body independence -- it's not just about rotational independence.  Once that is acheived the more advanced tipping/angulation can be explored against pure inclination -- and the skier will learn that even the tipped and angulated turns will have some rotation of the femurs in the hip sockets, just more "passive".

Hope that helped.


JASP,

I hope that you can see just how important it is to make sure that we understand precisely what the term rotation means here.  Rotation about an external point happens in every turn.  We rotate the body around the point that defines the the turn radius.  It happens whether or not we are countered.  But then the term counter-rotation makes no sense.  So rotation and counter-rotation make sense only when we restrict rotation to an axis inside the body.






Edited by BigE - 6/29/2009 at 03:28 pm GMT
Edited by BigE - 6/29/2009 at 03:53 pm GMT

E, I agree that TDK needs to review his video and how he is using his hips (pelvis). Although I would add that here in PSIA-RM active hip rotary (to create a countered stance) isn't used much any more. Leg steering seems to be the preferred movement pattern here. We are also tasked with creating carved turns using leg steering and tipping but no hip rotary. So in the strict definition of "turn the body one way and the feet another" we don't really do that very often.
As far as labeling angulation as alway good and inclination as always bad, I would disagree with such black and white thinking. Both are valid and useful movements within the context of specific situations. Knowing which move to use and when to use it, gives us a lot more options during a turn. Same as knowing when to carve and when to skid. An expert can do any of this stuff at will and can blend a bit of both quite easily as the situation dictates. That's the true sign of expertise, the ability to choose a tactic and whatever movements that match the terrain and produces exactly the intended outcome.

JASP, I agree!

Did the world just end?

I will teach active countering though.  It's quite useful to introduce the concept and can also be useful when carving.  Especially to counteract any  possible tendencies to actively rotate when trying to initiate the carve.

I see USSA coaches use an active hip counter to expedite getting the inside hip driven into the turn. Especially when the gate set requires an abbreviated initiation phase and a strong, very early control phase. What TDK shows is too much of this (even he agrees that he is exaggerating this) for the outcome. Since he creates so much movement through the transition, the rest of the turns takes on a static posed quality. Which adds another error in that instead of progressively getting off the edge he hangs onto too much edge late in the turn and then needs to rush the release. A very common problem for arc to arc skiers who think arc to arc means pose to pose...

Sharp edges,
I wish I had video to post. Only because it could use some for my powerpoint presentations. 

Thanks for your input BigE and for focus on the video.

Then you would be comparing tipping vs steering/pivotting : "Turning the feet" vs "tipping the ski".  Such a contrast would show turns being skidded using leg steering vs turns being carved by ski tipping.

My intent was not to show two forms of valid skiing and how they differ. My intent was to show a flaw and how to fix it. The flaw is upper body rotation and hips wondering out in the turn. The result is low edge angles and skidding ski tails and skis. The fix is hips into the turn, angulation. On the same video taking but not shown in this particular clip is a bunch of different ways of tipping the skis onto their new edges. Including flexing the inside ski, ancle tipping, angulation, counter, femure rotation and a blend of many things. In the same taking I tried to simulate rotation and how that would affect the turning and the result is IMHO very dramatic. I think the video is great but I only need to tweek the presentation so that it would make sence to my audience. Thats where your input comes in. This is not about how good/bad skier or instructor I am, its about how well you can help me.

Inclination is a word used to describe how much the skier leans into the turn. Inclination is an angle between two planes. In this case the two planes would be represented by the snow and the skier. It has also taken the meaning of an totally erect body. My intent was not to couple "inclination" with bad form since has been, it can be and is used sucessfully in skiing today but it is not a movement with which you can replace angulation. No good skier using inclination cannot and will not angulate ever. Its just that they dont "need" angulation in a specific situation. Or they think they dont need angulation. Or they are just lazy. Or their skis are too sharp. KISS: "Good inclination" would be "no need for angulation" and "bad inclination" would be "need for angulation". Very ruffly offcourse. Bad inclination is also refered to as "banking". In my video I couple "upper body rotation" with "banking" because if you know how to angulate you dont need upper body rotation to initiate a turn and rotating your upper body does nothing to your skis if you are angulated. Actually that could be a very advanced move but in this case people rotate into the turn to make their ski tails skid. And this happens since rotating their upper body into the turn drags their hips in the opposite direction of center of turn and causes flattening of the edge angles which causes skidding. 

So my video contrasts tipping and angulation vs upper body rotation and "banking".
 
Correct me if Im wrong but actively rotating my femures in my hip sockets does not require steering/drifting/brushing/skidding skis. By actively rotating my femures in my hip sockets I can apply torque to my arcing and carving skis and crank them into a sharper turn than what I would normally do. Its all on the media not shown here. Maybe I should redo the video with that kind of turning insted of the one done by angulation. However, my intent was to show how simple use of hips can boost your skiing. At all levels.

One more thing about rotation. There is one more rotation that you do not recogize in your last paragraph. IMO a situation where the hip radius is increasing but the ski and upper body radius is not. This occours only momentarily before this kind of divergence of body parts rotating arround an external point starts to come apart. Any thaughts?

Precisely, something you can see from my video even though you give it little credit. Its also a key factor when performing short turns.

The problem I have with the video is that the fix for upper body rotation has nothing to do with angulation.  It has everything to do with upper and lower body separation about the axis of rotation. 

The CSIA call this axis "the rotational plane"; this axis originates at the balance point between the feet, and extends through the CM.  This "plane" gives the CSIA 4 planes of movement -- vertical,  fore/aft, lateral and rotational.

TDK6, what you are suggesting is that to fix an error in the rotational plane, you use movement in the lateral plane.  This is simply not required, since correct movements in the rotational plane alone can do that and are a lot simpler to manage; specifically, pivotting/steering the feet.

If the video is to highlight the differences between skidded turns and carved turns, it does not do that effectively because the technique displayed in the skidded turn is so very poor. 

You say that the choice is between shallow skidded turns and angulated turns.  I believe that the choice is between skidded turns and edged turns. How you create the edge angles for the turn is a matter of intent, and should largely be dictated by the terrain.  There is no reason that the turns you are making on such a flat pitch require such exagerrated/posed deeply angulated positions.  In my opinion, form should follow function.  This is not what I see in the video.

My thoughts on the movement of the hips across the skis are that such a movement is simply a lateral movement of the hips.  The movement of the hips into the turn is also a lateral movement. The movement of the hips from inside the turn to above the skis is a lateral movement. Just because this happens while turning does not change the nature of the movement.  The frame of reference ought to be the body and skis not the center of the turn with given radius.  That is a frame that a student can understand and control. 
 

TDK,
I am wondering if your "anti-angulation" turns are really a variation of parallel Christiania turns without the big counter rotated shoulder windup and if the angulated turns are the windup without the swing phase. The hips and shoulder usage certainly resemble that more than contemporary skiing which features more lower body movement and much less active counter rotation in the shoulders and hips.

In your last post you wrote something about short turns being when you would use this move. Most modern slalom theories I see feature very active legs and the torso (pelvis included) facing the apex of the next turn. The countered stance is more an outcome of the legs turning and passing under the relatively stable torso and arms. Perhaps in a hairpin turn with a lot of offset you would use the active hip counter rotary idea but  here in the US the focus is on the lower body. Sharp Edges might be able to share current Austrian thinking about this and would be a good resource for you on your side of the pond.
SE you still out there?

Re: good and bad inclination.

This is a topic that should not be addressed anywhere, except maybe to say that inclination is bad if the result is that too much weight is put onto the inside ski and the skier falls as a result.  Please note that this inclination is also not bad if the skier is doing a "white pass lean".  So, when is it that the skier should be angulating?

Maybe angulation is the fix for an overly inclined skier.....  or maybe the skier should be steering/pivotting/brushing that turn instead.

There are too many possibilities to say for sure.  But I'm certain that steering/pivotting/brushing should not be ignored.

EDIT: I am also certain that the rush to angulation has it's own failure modes -- namely throwing the hips into the turn to define the edge angle, which can lead to throwing the hips back as well as inside.  This is a common error that is exhibited when people are taught angulation before they are well balanced.

I use telemark turns on alpine gear to demo medium radius turns at just about the speed TDK is showing in the video. Done correctly the rush to counter the hips and the hips dropping too much inside the turn simply cannot happen. The inside leg won't allow it. They're a little easier if you do a blended turn but it's one way to explore just how little edge angle it takes to do a carve of that size. It also cures the too inclined stance because the outside ski cannot gain edge purchase if you lean too far inside the turn. The down side is it is easy to rotate the hips into the turn when you pull that foot back. Which again should point out that overdoing a movement produces a different outcome than you might have originally intended.

Huh? You can do a telemark turn without free-heels?

It's a drill Shancy taught me back in 01 in a trainer's clinic over at Loveland Basin. It's not the deep knee variety since the heel doesn't come off the ski but it sure opens your eyes to just how little edge it takes to gain edge purchase at slow speeds like in TDK's Video.
The edge change is also interesting if you are not accustomed to playing on a near flat ski. You just can't huck the body into the new turn you actually need to concentrate on touch, feel, and balance as you progressively fall into the turn and the feet move away from the body.

So Shanzy took the notion of pulling the inside foot back at turn initiation and renamed it to a "telemark turn on alpine gear"?

No the name is because it is a tele turn on alpine gear. Pulling back the inside foot and maintaining outside tip lead of at least six inches to a foot throughout the turn. That's different from pulling back the inside foot through the transition and then allowing inside ski lead to develop. Epic's next Academy is coming up this winter and if Weems is still the head coach maybe Schancey will be there as well. I'm sure he could show you some of these turns. If not come out to Keystone and I'll go out with you and we can play with the idea. 
IMO TDK would benefit from this because he is in such a hurry to over angulate in the hip joint.  

I'd love to take you up on the opportunity, but....Sorry, I've already got to choose between two destinations: my kids are racing!

Back on topic..... what's the point in teaching outside tip lead?  Is this just "instructor cool" or do you actually do this to your students?

Good point. Looks a bit like park and ride..... But the trail is not very wide and I have to rush into the new turn not to end up out of bounds. 

I should post the entire video clip so that you can see the differences in movements. I alredy uploaded it to vimeo but its not online yet. Let me post the link tomorrow. Thanks for your active participation in this thread, your advice and your positive and constructive outlook.


Edited by tdk6 - 7/1/2009 at 08:22 am GMT