Bad Rotation (video)

 

Thanks for your comments Skidude72. Also thanks for ranking me #1 even if the category is not what I allways whished for . Sorry for my confusing terminology but I find no consensus on the terms used at epic (or elswhere) so Im not IMO causing the confusion, merely just riding the gondola. My definition of "hip rotation" is hips being rotated "outwards", not "inwards". This is a gray area offcourse. If you picture yourself sufficiently angulated and countered in a turn your hips would be "inwarad", your skis would be tipped on edge and your CoM would be held or brought away from the turning forces. If you gave in to the forces and started to lose your angulation and counter and started moving your hips outwards even if your skis were on edge and your hips to the inside of the skis I would call it "hip rotation". This is the reason I named it "bad rotation". I was not sure everyone would agree it was hip rotation. You might think Im a bit crazy but this is the exact feedback Im looking for. Im far from perfect and still learning the game. Now Im also learning it in english and hopefully in agreement with PSIA and CSIA and with as many other assosiation standards as well.

 

Could the same video clip be used to explain ILS? Or should it be somehow explained in the same video? How would you like to change the included text?

 

Good point. So you think that I exaggerated the correct movements to the extent that the outcome is no longer correct? Yes, its on purpose so that as many as possible can isolate the good and bad movements but if it destroys the overall outcome then its not good.

 

[Quote="tdk6"]My definition of "hip rotation" is hips being rotated "outwards", not "inwards". This is a gray area offcourse.[/Quote]

 

Skidude72 gave you the correct definition, yet you don't use it. Why?

 

I cannot understand what you are talking about at all, and I don't think I am the only one.

 

This is standard terminology. I've never seen inwards and outwards to mean anything other than "towards the inside" and "towards the outside" of the turn, even on epic.

 

With rotation of the hips,  "Outwards"  would mean rotate so that the belly button points to the outside of the turn.  This is counter-rotation. "Inwards" would mean rotate so that the  belly button points into the turn. This is rotation.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by BigE - 6/22/2009 at 03:42 pm GMT

terms and subjective opinions...

Here we go again, five pages will ensue as we attempt to find a defenition that works in everyone's teaching model...

 

TDK, My point is DO NOT LABEL THOSE DRILLS AS SKIING!!! Use the drill to isolate and develop the movements you are featuring but at some point you need to lose the exaggerated movements and show them incorporated in regular skiing. That step is missing from your videos.

 

 Great post JASP....just a few questions thou...

 

When you say "drills", do you mean exercises?  Seems to me a drill is somthing you repeat, and what TDK does is exercises?

 

When you say "isolate"...what do you mean?  How do you "isolate" somthing, do you take it away and put in a locked room far far away from everybody else?  How do you do that?  Do you have one of these rooms at Keystone?

 

Incorporate into "regular" skiing.  So do you mean regular like what me and "ma bros do every week down at da park, whilse we chuckin sick moves off the massive hits"?

 

Also when you talk about steps missing in the video...which step?  did he step at all?  Texas two step?

 

 

 

 

 

You are right thou....terminology is not important....everyone knows what you mean.

 

 

 

Remember:  Those five page debates where not about definitions per se, they occoured during the "battle years" and where alot more about twisting definitions to allow people to save face after they realized they were proven wrong.  The definition changes were typically obvious and desperate, and due to the emotional involment of those debates, people would jump in both sides to argue for their winner, it was not about skiing or definitions, it was all about "one up manship".  

 

If you want to solve the definition debate...easy, just PDF the glossary from the PSIA manual, someone do it for the CSIA manual, someone do the APSI, etc etc etc etc and post.  Easy, quick reference, you will be amazed at just how little difference there is in ski terms used world wide. 

 

 

I see what you mean.... thanks for pointing it out.

 

Im sorry for the mixup in terminology. Rotating, or better yet "turning", your belly button towards the outside would cause the hips to rotate, or better yet "move", inwards. I was focussing on the hips not the belly button. Thats the reason I have it the other way arround. 

 

Angulation has no rotational movement in it. You simply move your hips sideways towards the inside. As a result, the oposite of angulation also cannot be rotation. It would simply be moving the hips sideways towards the outside. It is therefore wrong of me to talk about hip rotation being the opposite of angulation. Here some simple graphs of upper and lower body seen from behind on a left turn: 

 

Angulation:

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\

 

Inclination:

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.\

 

Banking:

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Common BigE, surely it cannot be that bad. When belly button is turned outwards hips are being turned inwards and the other way arround. Whats so hard to understand ? Sounds like you dont want to understand.

 

Thanks for the input. But that is no drill or exersise. Its skiing. Its the way that Im skiing. I always initiate my turns with tipping, angulation and counter. That movement, hips in, is crucial for the initiation and exercusion of my carved turns.

 

The belly button goes outwards, as do the hips.  They don't go in the opposite way.

 

The belly button goes outwards, the inside hip advances.

 

The pelvis rotates on top of the outside femur, to point the belly button to the outside of the turn.

 

Are you really teaching to move the hips and belly button to point in different directions?

 

 

 

E, With a global audience we cannot assume one definition would fit in all of the teaching models. I keep looking for descriptive phrases as an alternative for that very reason. Every time I use a term I end up having to define it anyway so why go down that path? To me it's just simpler to write out the meaning in the first place.

For those interested in learning the terminology of PSIA or any other organization, I suggest visiting their web sites. They have spent more than enough time and money producing their training programs and teaching materials.

I also remember Bob Barnes' Encyclopedia being offered as a common ground reference here at Epic. Problem is the new edition isn't out yet and the old edition isn't available eveywhere.

 

 

 

TDK, Try doing the same "skiing" without as much mental focus on adding hip angulation to the slow speed turns you are demonstrating. Just ski them with a minimalist attitude. Create only as much edge angle as it takes to make the skis turn. When you feel the skis carving, try the next turn with even less edge angle and explore tipping the skis using more than just hip angulation. Roll the ankles, roll the knees, bend the inside leg and inclinate, rotate the femurs just enough so the skis arc. All of these movements will produce the turns you demonstrated. Angulation for angulation's sake is a tactical choice but in this case I see it as an error because it requires so many subsequent corrective counter balancing moves. Kneale gave you an example of one very effective and efficient option that doesn't include the big hip angulated stance. I know you love angulation but like every movement, it's not a universal element of modern skiing.

 

No need to assume, many here have the experience to show that skiing is infact a small world, and the working relationships between the various systems is strong.  As such most definitions are fundamentally common...sure there is some variance around the edges, but differrences are largley immaterail, they are certainly not polar opposites as some here would like you to believe.
 

Quote:

I took you up on this suggestion, however I could not find a page of definitions on their website...perhaps I missed it?

Actually SD if I asked you what TDK is trying to communicate I'm quite sure you could tell me without you using a lot of "instructor speak". Sadly, way too many discussions here get derailed by a difference in terms and how they are being used. So even though TDK may not have used terms the same way you would, did you understand what he was trying to say? I've voiced my opinion that his videos look like drills because the hip usage is so exaggerated. He admits he exaggerated the hip movements for effect which IMO means he overused the moves. BTW that also means he didn't use the other joints as much as the hips. Which is another error, At least that's my opinion...

Excellent discussion going on.

 

BigE, Im not really clear on how "hips" are defined so I may have used the word falcely. IMO "hips" are not on the front side of the body but I could be wrong. I consider hips to be the "hip area". Also, the point arround which the hips are rotating is also a matter of definition. When talking about "hip rotaiton" IMO origo is not halfway between the two hip bones but rather outside the body, in front. This may be wrong according to PSIA or BBs definitions. I would like to use the right definitions so all input on this matter is wellcome. BTW, is there a difference between countering the belly button area and countering the hips? They can be performed independently but also together which is the more common way.

 

justanotherskipro, good posting #44. Note that I said in the narration on the video that I was going to "try" to demonstrate hip rotation. Not that it was hip rotation. I like your approach, Im by no means a very disiplined instructor and I try to approach new ideas with an open mind. From the same video session there is material where I try to initiate turns differently. This would be my defalut movements for the time being. I start the turns by forming a upside down position by tipping the new inside ski onto its LTE starting from a ancle movement and then angulating. It might be that its not really new school but Ive been skiing since the 60s so I have gone through many phases of "new school" skiing but allways stuck with what I thaught was good from what I knew from before and from what is presented as new. 

Hip rotation is pelvis rotation.  We say the hips point forwards means that the front face of the pelvis is pointing forwards.  Since hip rotation is pelvis rotation, the axis about which the hips rotate is within the body.  The hips do not rotate about an axis in front of the body -- that is a different sort of rotation, and does not belong in a discussion of counter.

 

Here's an interesting description of counter-rotation from a waterskiing perspective...

 

 

Mogulmuncher,

Thanks for that refreshing simplicity.

No by reading his post or the comments on the video I had no clue what he was trying to say.  The only reason I could understand anything was becuase he posted a video.  My assessments were based purely on that video....as were yours no doubt.  Without that video, I would have absolutley no clue what he was talking about.  I doubt anyone else would have either.

Rightly or wrongly, I dont think I would be exaggerating if I said 99% of all posts here do not contain video, as such terminology is important.  I have no issue with your suggestion of using descriptive phrases instead of terms, but in a practical sense I simply do not see my self explaining what ILS is, everytime I want to use the concept.  If you choose to, great, but I think you will find that very few people here have the time or patience to keep that up for very long.


Again, I dont agree.....discussions get derailed becuase people dont understand the terms they use.....then to save face they "change the definition" to suit their argument.  You have been around here long enough to know that as well as anyone.

The skier is  ready to unwind a turn in the other direction as soon as the feet get light.

Here's a good example of terminology being a problem...
Hip rotation describes the femur articulating in the acetabulum, which is otherwise know as the hip joint. Adduction, abduction, flexing, extending and long axis rotation of the entire leg are all forms of "hip rotation". Which is far different from the rotation of the pelvis and how that changes the direction the front of pelvic girdle is facing. So technically E's statement about what is and isn't hip rotation was not exactly correct. And it was not entirely wrong either since half the pelvis and the distal top of the femur are also known as "the hip". As he wrote his post he spelled out that he was talking about where the pubic area faces. Everyone got that without him using a lot of superfluous terminology or any acronyms. I might add that he used less key strokes to write it out in simple, direct language.

Thanks!... I think...

With all respect JASP, the rotation of the femur in it's myriad ways is rotation of the femur in the hip.

What I was talking about was rotation of the hip.

Huh?  This actually a great example of people not understanding terms they use.  As Big E already pointed out, he was referring to  rotation of the hips.

What you are talking about is esentially leg rotation within the hips.  Very different.  But again, not understanding the terms you got lots wrong there.  Flexing/Extending of the hip joint is just that.  In skiing we use the "jargon" of ...flexing/extending.....

Adduction/Abduction is covered again the jargon of "angulation"....

Long axis rotation is covered in "pivoting"....

I have no doubt if you try to confuse terms you can....but instead I think you should be trying to create clarity.  My glossary idea would solve all that, as it would clearly state what rotation means in skiing, what pivoting is, what flexion and extension is, what inclination is, what angulation is, what counter rotation is, etc etc. 
Edited by Skidude72 - 6/25/2009 at 04:22 am GMT

SD and BigE, please look at the video and give me some MA. Since Im not according to you demoing hip rotation then what am I demoing? What is wong in the wrong department and what is right in the right department. I could then change the narration to fit your input. Thats what this thread is all about anyway. And the video is not supposed to be a video for instructors. Its supposed to be a video for students so try to keep the language simple and clear, yet correct.

IMO most skiers even at top level have a problem with initiating a cleanly carved turn entry and then holding it through out the turn without having the tails of the skis brake loos and brush. Making a brushed turn is also a valuable skill but in a way these both are totally different even though the same movements are used. It all comes apart at initiation. If you initiation is not clean then you whole turn will be brushed. My movements are tipping my inside ski onto its LTE and angulation. As my skis start arcing my upper body counters gradually through out the turn. Bad form is letting the hips wonder out into the turn. I see this as a major problem among skiers. Its been a major problem for as long as I can remember. The cure has allways been angulation and counter. Inclination might be ok in some cases and at top level skiing its being used as a setup move for shorter pressure but at the crucial moment angulation and proper hip management allways kicks in. Moving back into the scope of the video clip, beginner to intermediate level, proper movements should be used from the very start of the turn.

SD, I'm not confused in any way about this. Rotating the pelvis on top of the femoral head is what E meant. (SEE post 39) TDK was unclear by what E meant when he used the term HIPS. To E's credit he quickly wrote out exactly what he meant in post 46. So how much time was saved to use the term hips instead of pelvis? How many additional posts occurred trying to define and explain what was written so very well in post 39. 
Acknowledging that TDK has a different definition only recognized that in other parts of the world the terms we use do not alway match how we would use a term. Post 39 explained the rotation quite well without resorting to instructor jargon. Although the head of the trochanter rotating in the acetabulum seems to conflict a bit with post 46's definition of hip rotation. Both forms of hip rotation (rotating the pelvis and rotation in the hip joint) are involved in that great post 39 description. Which is why writing the pelvis rotating on the femoral head is so much more understandable.
TDK wants some MA's of his performance though. I gave him one but he wants one from E and you SD. Lets get on with that instead of this lame discussion of who's right and wrong when it comes to definitions.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/25/2009 at 06:37 pm GMT

Good posting justanotherskipro. Interestingly enough IMO the hip rotation arround an axis located in the middle between the two hip bones is not the same as the pelvis rotating on top of the outside femure. Also the third kind of rotation would be the hips rotating arround an axis outside in the front of the body.

tdk6,

Why do you continue to promote this garbage? The third kind of rotation is not hip rotation, no matter how much you want it to be. Soon you will be defining all of skiing as some sort of hip rotation.

E, I think this is a classic example of a translation not being very exact. So please give TDK a some slack.
I think he is trying to say that the axis of rotation (pivot point) of any angular movement does not need to be inside an object for it to be pivoting around an axis. Hula hoop hip (pelvis) circles being an example of the pelvis moving but the axis of the rotation is outside the pelvis. Yes that's different from the classic definition of the pelvis rotating around an internal pivot point. SO WHAT! Let it go man. Give him an analysis of his video already. The debate over defining a term is getting tedious and in the long run countering the hips is only a small part of what TDK is over doing with his hips in these videos.
We've gotten way off track about the turns he posted. I'm repeating myself here but let me try to say this another way...
...Since both hip (pelvis) movements are done to an extreme, the result is not a balanced stance. It's the opposite, he is out of balance and he adds corrective counter balancing movements to the maneuvers to compensate for initial moves that were so exaggerated. IMO the contrived nature of these turns is exactly the type of result we should expect when we exaggerate any movement. Match the intensity of your movements to the situation better TDK, and don't try to over emphasize the moves when you are showing  the final results.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/26/2009 at 07:49 pm GMT

JASP, the problem I have with the definition of rotation about any external point, is that in a turn, such a point always exists.  That makes such a definition or rotation meaningless. Worse, since the axis of rotation is not fixed (internal vs external) it confuses the meaning of the term.

Regardless.

In TDK's video, it looks like he is attempting to show that the hips being inside the turn is correct form.  

What I see is TDK trying to prove that by skiing "the same" turn, but with the hips in a different position (thus changing the edge angle), and then trying to "throw the shoulder" to rotate the entire body to drive the turn, instead of allowing the edge to drive the turn. 

The <ahem> hip rotation part, is really nothing of the sort.  If it was, the outside hip would be leading the inside hip. 
 

No Jasp,

BigE and myself and trying to bring clarity to this conversation...you and TDK6 are trying to do nothing but confuse and twist the conversation.  Your post 51, followed by 55 then TDK's beauty in 56......only proves that.  How many many medical terms can you get in one post? 

My point always was, and always will be, this is a skiing website, this is a ski instructor to ski instructor forum, we should use proper ski instructor terminology.  Bringing in medical terminology, or marine terminology, or military terminology is bogus, and you know it.

The only time I think we should use medical terms, or physics or biomechanics is when it is needed to bring clarity to the conversation, or to get a deeper understanding of skiing.  None of your posts did that, nor did any of TDK's do that.  You simply used words for the sake of them....TDKs "rotation about some arbitratry point" while perhaps true, adds nothing, as Big E pointed out, with that logic we are all rotating about the axis of the earth every second of every day...even after we die!  Should we take that into account when doing MA? 

Again:  Simplify and clarify

Einstein obviously did alot of great work, but what he is most famous for is E=mc^2.  Why?  Anyone can ramble on for days, and make thousands of incoherant, unrelated statments.  But it takes a much greater level of understanding and skill to tie them all together in a nice neat package that hangs together, where concepts complement one another, and where "exceptions to the rule" are minimal.