Bad Rotation (video)

First TDK, nice idea to create a video with some contrasting concepts.  One thing I would suggest is that it may be interesting to contrast angulation to banking, as opposed to angulation vs upper body rotation.  Upper body rotation might be contrasted to counter.  Yes, angulation and counter are often combined, I agree.  I'm not sure right now how to resolve that, but comparing angulation to upper body rotation to me is a little conceptually muddy.  You will have to go a bit faster to demonstrate banking.

On the topic of whether demonstrating early angulation is good or bad, I would say that it can be good, depending on what you're doing.  Steve suggested that the exaggerated video might be misleading, and I agree partially with that.  Too much blatant early angulation would be contrived and wrong.  On the other hand a lot of what we're talking about is an internal sense of balance that is hard to show without making an exaggerated demonstration.  Feeling your balance move out over the inside edge of the outside ski requires an internal sense of balance that will inevitably result in visible angulation and a maintained sense of balance on the outside ski.  

The feedback I keep getting from lots of respectable race coaches and PSIA examiners too is that too many skiers are diving to the inside too much.  They go kind of weightless and let the skis carve around and catch up to them.  Its an addicting feeling.  Its not necessarily the best technique.  Seems it has become a big epidemic in the current generation.  

Mentally getting the concept of establishing balance earlier on the outside ski rather than dive bombing to the inside and waiting for the skis to come to you is what early angulation concepts are really about.  The truth is that a good skier will not appear angulated early on, which is what I think Steve is concerned about; but they will feel the same sense of balance I'm talking about over that outside ski, that almost feels like you are kind of starting the early stages of angulating.  As the turn forces build and the edge angles increase, the angulation will build and become much more visible. 

Moving towards the outside early is an internal balance concept.  Demonstrating early angulation and getting students to do that will help them to feel that internal balance.

But on the other hand, I get what Steve is saying about it looking a bit contrived.  But we do a lot of exercises in order to get people to FEEL things, even if the end result will not necessarily look the same as the drill.

I will also say, its very hard to demonstrate this kind of balance skill at slow speeds and it will fundamentally require you to angulate a lot early on in order to stay in proper balance.  At higher speeds it would not be that exaggerated.

BTS, I think this is an area of less agreement than some others. I have heard some high-level instructors say that we should incline as much as we can, then use angulation to tweak the performance of ski on snow. Others think that angulation should be the primary movement with only enough inclination to make the balance work. I think it's a function of snow surface, with the easy-skiing Colorado snow much more welcoming of the former technique and my old stomping grounds of Michigan, NY, and Vermont being better conditions for the latter technique. Perhaps, though, they merge in practice among top-level skiers?

I haven't experimented with the two enough to say for sure, although my mental image practice leads me to believe that they might. Thoughts?

And yes, my concern is intermediate-level skiers learning to lead with their upper body tipping to the outside of the turn (as one did in an old-fashioned snowplow/snowplough turn) instead of leading with tipping and using a combination of inclination and angulation to balance along that inside edge of the outside ski. I understand the need to exaggerate, but I think that the timing is off and that could lead to some bad interpretations and habits that are better avoided, I think. Do you agree?

Oh no question about it, there is a LOT of disagreement on this point.  I will only say a few things further.

ALL of the PSIA and race pros I have heard this from were west of the rockies.  That doesn't necessarily make it the absolute rule, just sayin'....it doesn't have to be hard snow.

Like I said before, its more of a mental thing.  The problem is that a lot of people try to take the early inclination too far.  I am guilty myself of that, making the big bold moves inside.  The big angles are fun and they look cool, but they can get you into trouble too.  

I don't really prescribe to the fan club of people that think angulation is the "primary movement" as you put it.  I think "moving to the outside" is.  Leaning inside can be detrimental to that move to the outside.  Ideally, you let turn forces carry your CoM to the inside and focus your attention on movements to making sure you direct it forward to the outside, which will show as angulation during the last half of the turn, probably at or before the apex.  Although you may see less or no angulation in the beginning, what is difficult to visibly see is how the skier is moving to the outside as they fall inside.  Usually if they aren't, then by the second half of the turn they'll be on their inside ski, the outside will be skating away.  That early movement to the outside is what prevents that from happening.

So yea, angulation should really develop later in the turn as far as what you'd expect to see visibly in higher speed skiing.  However the move to the outside, no I don't think so, I think many people are in err to huck themselves too far inside early on.

Like I said, this exercise is being done slowly and its pretty much impossible to move outside without angulation at that speed.  Nor is it an error to do so at that speed.

The real question here is, what is TDK attempting to demonstrate or prove with it.  I think its a bit conceptually muddy.

There are more than a few really good skiers I know that are hucking too far to the inside and could stand to do some exaggerated early angulation drills in order to feel themselves getting onto the outside ski early and staying balanced on it.


Edited by borntoski683 - 11/1/09 at 1:28pm

Thanks for your input guys. I tweeked the consept to better match up with what BTS had to say. Now its more angulation vs banking. Ssh, you might be right that the angulation movement I use is overdone. Many have said so previously and I perfectly well understand you obsrvation and I thank you for your input but I beg to differ. It might sound funny but I think that my movements were perfectly correct where and how I was skiing. I would not have been able to get as much tipping and skis as much on edge as if I had only inclined. I think that is one of the lessons to be learned from this video.

 I think that's definitely improved conceptually TDK.  You might consider using some arrows pointing their pinched outside hip when angulating and give them a cue to feel the pinch there to know they're doing it.

Thanks BTS. Yes, arrows would be great. I would have to take the freezed frame which is a frame capture and bring it into paint shop pro and insert the arrows and then take it back to the software. For every arrow I would have to make an own picture and when I have both frames over each other I would have double ammount of photos to edit and then they are layered on top of each other.....  too much work Im affraid. But the ide is good. And the cue to feel the pinch is good. Can you give me the exact text to insert into an textbox? Very short.