Bad Rotation (video)

I totally agree!  Personally I think it is ok to skip all the instructor bull and go straight to the world cup, or to starring in a ski movie, ripping big lines on huge untouched mountain peaks.....but having said that, no one in history has done it...and I have no idea how anyone could.  Just like I have no idea how anyone could go from "bad steering to good carving" without some skill development inbetween.  Sure "park and ride" is possible....but that is not good carving in my book....or really even carving....it is just riding a tipped ski.  In good carving the skier is the pilot...in park and ride the skier is just a passenger.

Note that Im the one that pointed out in the first place that telemark turns can be carved or steered. And yes, in this context a telemark turn is only a drill. Sofar I have not seen anybody use alpine gear in combination with telemark turns for any other reason.

Also alpine skis can be used to generate a pure carved turn or a steered turn. Are we getting a bit off topic here.....

There is a fundamental uderstanding you are missing SD. There is a huge difference if you edge lock your skis or if you actively steer them with lower body rotation when it comes to who is the rider and who is the passenger. If you edge lock your skis you cannot turn them. If you actively steer you can turn them easily by rotating your legs. In an edge lock carve its a combination of speed and snow surface and movements you do with your body that "indirectly" affect how you turn. It just sounds cool to say that "Im in charge" and Im not along for a ride. Fact is you are. Or you are not carving. Check out my threads from years back on people that think they carve but they dont.

I dont understand what you are saying. My video shows the solution to poor carving. Your quoted text above is a total mystery to me. Insted of trying to be constructive you are simply picking everything apart. Thank you for your active participation in this thread but your input here has been of little value.

TDK6,

Welcome to my ignore list.
 

Just my luck. I can't find the damn thing!

Well it worked for me.  Maybe I should have given the WC a shot too.  I could'a been a contender!
In fact you can carve edge-locked and be in total control of where you are headed without "steering", steering being defined as a torque applied by the skier/ski interface that rotates the ski about an axis perpendicular to the plane of the ski.  The turn is shaped by changing the tipping angle and resulting in-contact-with-the-snow radius of the ski.

The problem is that bad steering and good carving have not been defined. And some have a bad imagination and bad vidion. Because of this its easy to troll a discussion like this. It should have been really easy to look at the video and give feedback. The consept here is to tweek the video. I put up a video and asked if its bunk or if there is some substance to it. Im willing to change everything and I also did change a lot of things in the 3 versions. Nobody really picked up on the consept with a few exeptions. This thread has gone bad and we have given birth to frankenstein.

Better than being on your troll list.

I taught my daughter to carve without teaching her any "steering".  She learned relatively quickly, but she's not interested in competing.

Maybe Frankenstein's Monster lives, but we are well past page 3. 

I think some have taken your poor skiing to be a misrepresentation of their "steering" and read into your thread the implication that steering = bad, cure= carving, and got their panties in a knot.

Now we are at the cusp of "what is steering" and all that.  However isn't that the way of threads when they get to be 5 pages long?  People invariably have differing fundamental understandings, and 5 pages is enough to rub all the sore spots.

I doubt it.  If you are controling where you are going, you are not doing park and ride....you are doing "proper carving".  I am sure you could execute a pretty good steered turn as well.....psstt...here is a secret...you are probably a better skier then you think.

Again just becuase you never taught her....doesnt mean she cant do it.  This reminds me of the classic case of the 17 year old kid who flunks his Level 1, and goes on about how CSIA sucks anyway and the real skiers like Hugo Harrison don't do the stuff I wanted him to do..blah blah blah....but here is the kicker....sure Hugo doesnt do wedge christies...but I have seen Hugo ski, and let me let you in on another little secret...the guy RIPS!...he could do the wedge christies easily, and execute them flawlessely....conversly the 17year old, could not do the wedge christie, nor could he ski like Hugo...

People get all confused with end form and the skills it takes to generate that end form.  We teach and develop skills.  A good pro can see where skills exist, and where they are deficiant...regardless of whether they are doing a drill, doing short turns, or long, powder or bumps, carving or steering etc etc.  Further some people have more natural ability then others, this is especially true of kids...just becuase you never taught them somthing does not mean that they do not have that skill.....or have not developed it regardless.

This is where this site degrades....people like myself (and I am by no means the only one on this site) can spot skill deficiencies a mile a way...when we point them out, we are confronted with "that was not my intent"...or "no I am carving, that is steering"...or as you wrote "I'll just skip that and go straight to the end result I want"...etc etc etc.

Oh really?   So what about working the skis self steering effect with fore/aft pressure...altering edge angle....a skilled skier is definatley in charge of where they go....only park and rides are along for the ride.....you clearly dont understand that yet, and that causes you much confusion. 

Oh really?   So what about working the skis self steering effect with fore/aft pressure...altering edge angle....a skilled skier is definatley in charge of where they go....only park and rides are along for the ride.....you clearly dont understand that yet, and that causes you much confusion. 

Rich.  You asked for feedback and you got it.  When the information offered was not inline with what you expected you ignored, manipulated, and argued.  The value gained from the value offered is entirely up to you.  It does not surprise me you took no value from this thread....as it is obvious you never have taken value from any threads to date...instead you use Epic as a vehicle for self affirmation.  Sad.

We dont have the same understanding regarding "dierct" and "in-direct". IMO the difference is that when a skier wants to turn left:
Direct - turn skis left
In-direct - flex inside left leg, tip ancles, pressure tips, inclinate, angulate, counter, anticipate, level shoulders etc.

If you dont have this understanding its very hard to carve cleanly because you should not use any rotation or pivot or torque at initiation when edge angles are low because the skis would then start skidding. You very well said it yourself, WORK THE SKIS! That is correct. Work the skis, dont turn them.

No I did not. I changed the video but you guys never even took the time to watch it. Or you did but you did not pay attention or you were so sertain of your superiority that you did not see the changes. Or understand them. Whatever the reason the fact remains, no interaction regarding the posted video.

No tdk,

The fact remains,that you did not understand the feedback given to you.  It was 100% directed at your video.  Go back to post #2 of this thread and work your way along; try to learn and understand each one....there is years of work there for you.

Here are all the versions of the video. This is an interactive experiment where YOU can make all the difference. Post your suggested changes here and I will try my best and edit the video according to your suggestions. The original footage you can find at the bottom of this page. This is all the footage we have at our disposal in this thread but with extra effort some other video of my skiing can be used as well. A million thanks to all honorable epic ski forum members that have taken part in this discussion sofar.

tdk6

Version 1




Version 2




Version 3




Original footage unedited

TDK,

Wow.  Seriously, read my first post in this thread.  You are using ILS in all turns, in your RIGHT and in your WRONG.  So you are not using rotation to turn the skis.

At best this video can only be used to show hips in vs. hips out.....it cannot be used for rotation, or carving because you dont do that in either case.

EDIT: What you could say thou is this:  both turns are intiated using ILS.  Then in the "good" example you put the ski on edge using angulation....you then allow the edged ski to complete the turn.  In the bad example you try to pull the turn using your upper body, the video does show, although grossly exaggereted, how pulling the turn wiht the upper body forces this hips out....when the hips are pushed out in this way, the video shows how you lose edge angle....this loss of edge angle then of course causes the obvious problems, and somewhat starts a vicious cycle, the more edge angl e you lose, the more you pull the turn, causing you to lose more edge and so on.

This is a common problem with advanced skiers tyring to rush, gs turns.....as stated thou, your example is very exaggerated.
Edited by Skidude72 - 7/3/2009 at 07:40 pm GMT

Nice video, tdk6, clear and concise.
Improvements? "ruff" should be spelled "rough".

And maybe re-shoot it sometime in better light - looked cold that day!

 I haven't read the whole thread, but I got far  enough to see there is a disagreement about the meaning of the word hips. TDK, when an english speaking person is told to face his hips towards something, he will probably turn the front of himself towards that direction. Although the hips are sort of on the sides of a body, we think of the front of our body parts to be on the same side of us as our face. The front of my hips is the pubic area, the front of my knee is the patella, quads are on the front of my legs, etc. Body parts that are on the opposite side of the body from my face, like my back or my butt or my heels would be seen as facing towards the back, but HIPS are not the same as ASS, hips don't face backwards. If my ass is turned towards the inside of the turn, my hips are turned towards the outside. Hips and ass face the opposite direction. I hope that helps.

Doesn't it all make sense once you realize he thinks hips face backwards?

Great feedback SD. What you say in your 3rd paragraph makes lots of sence. Im going to try to see if I can work your words into the commentary.

However, I dont understand your first paragraph. You say I use ILS for both RIGHT and WRONG and not rotation. Well, IMHO Im using upper body rotation for the WRONG and a combination of angulation, counter and tipping for the RIGHT. There is no rotation in the RIGHT unless you dont mean femure rotation but that does not play a major role in this particular case.

Also, Im not quite sure why you think Im using ILS. To my understanding ILS is the inside leg steering not carving. In this particular video Im leaving two sharp RR-trax behind. Offcource the edge angles are quite small so the skis are not really edged anywhere near the performance sweetspot of these stiff SL racing skis. Any skidding of my inside ski would be a flaw, not ILS. Isnt ILS something you do counciously. Anyway, the intent was to carve and to do so by using various movements and to try to demo how upper body rotation affects your carivng. The quality of my carving is not the focus even though I tried my best under reining circumstances to keep my skis carving. You also say that it cannot be called carving but isnt carving using ILS still carving? Just at a different level? Not so advanced.

Thanks for your kind words. The video session turned out much better than I had hoped for and the stand-in cameraman did a great job. I wanted to see if this kind of camera angle could be used for demoing different movements and flaws. I overdid the BAD so that it would stand out and show. Next year Im going to try to shoot such material in sunny conditions. I have lots of new ideas. Yes, it was cold and it was really windy.

Thank you very much for the explanation.

Thanks for stepping in but we are over and done with this particular discussion. I had it all "backwards" .

Here is a new version, v4. Ive doen some changes to the commetary and included a skiing clip at the end. Here:

I like it.