Bad Rotation (video)

Here is a short video clip that some of you might find interesting. The trail is very flat and Im hardly moving. What Im trying to demo here is how to use your hips and how not to use them. I dont know about you guys but I think this is a fearly common problem. Sadly enough even at advanced level. In my demo I overdo the effect but I think that you can easily see the difference in both movement patterns and outcome. For me it boils down to how your skis track in the snow and how your upper body can assist.

http://vimeo.com/4148079

Added Video to post. T-Square

O.K.  so this is a demonstration of what NOT to do, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiFox 

O.K.  so this is a demonstration of what NOT to do, right?

Right. 

Is it visual enough? Do you learn something from it?
 

tdk6, nice demo and video... To answer your question, IMHO it depends on your audience. If the demo is intended for low advanced skiers and up, this video will serve well. For anyone skiing below that level, I am not sure if your views can tell what you're trying to show (the movements look very similar to a recreational skier). Also, I didn't hear any narrative. Is there supposed to be any? Talking them through what you're doing in the video and what you're trying to show will help a great deal. Also, some overlaid stick figure will definitely be helpful but that might be too much work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chanwmr 

tdk6, nice demo and video... To answer your question, IMHO it depends on your audience. If the demo is intended for low advanced skiers and up, this video will serve well. For anyone skiing below that level, I am not sure if your views can tell what you're trying to show (the movements look very similar to a recreational skier). Also, I didn't hear any narrative. Is there supposed to be any? Talking them through what you're doing in the video and what you're trying to show will help a great deal. Also, some overlaid stick figure will definitely be helpful but that might be too much work.

Sorry no narrative at the moment but a million thanks for your reply. If the video would greatly benefit from it then it can be arranged. Your input here is of great importance. I wonder if a narrative would clear things up a bit especially for the lower level skiers. There is a whole lot of more material shot like this from the back. I desided to start off with a simple example. I have other movements as well on other clips such as upper body counter, femour rotation and inside leg tipping. How about a scrolling text at the bottom?

Hmm... Scrolling text along with pointers (pointing at the areas of interest: e.g. tipping of ski edges, counter rotation) would definitely help. The more the visuals (simple and not crowded) the better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chanwmr 

Hmm... Scrolling text along with pointers (pointing at the areas of interest: e.g. tipping of ski edges, counter rotation) would definitely help. The more the visuals (simple and not crowded) the better.

Ok, here is a new version with narrative text included:

http://vimeo.com/4162348

Video added to post.  T-Square

 

tdk6,

There is good work here. The second video is much improved as there is clear emphasis on what is right versus what is wrong. It's amazing how much cleaner your skiing is in the angulated position, or, as PMTS terminology would call it Counter Balancing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Proof 

tdk6,

There is good work here. The second video is much improved as there is clear emphasis on what is right versus what is wrong. It's amazing how much cleaner your skiing is in the angulated position, or, as PMTS terminology would call it Counter Balancing.

Thanks Living Proof. IMO angulation is the most important movement. On the vid you can see how I accelerate as soon as I start angulatin and using right movements.

Yes, I think it shows bad form, but you see lots of people who look just like that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdk6 

 

Ok, here is a new version with narrative text included:

 

Much better. Just a couple more comments...

• Explain what you mean by inside and outside in the initial slides a bit even though they were mentioned in the captions later. (remember terms can be confusion for an aspiring skier)
• You may want to point out on your summary slide at 00:50 that hip-rotation=hips out=skid=skis on base and angulation=hips in=carve=skis on edge.
• I like the middle section with the captions and particularly like the frame comparison. So, good stuff!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiFox 

Yes, I think it shows bad form, but you see lots of people who look just like that!

Yes, glad you caught up on my bad form. And yes, you see a lot of skiers showing such bad and wrong movements. I dont think they are being actively thaught by instructors but many times they are overlooked. I dont think instructors pay enough attention in the very beginning. Later on its very very difficult to get rid of such bad ingrained movements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chanwmr 

 

Much better. Just a couple more comments...

• Explain what you mean by inside and outside in the initial slides a bit even though they were mentioned in the captions later. (remember terms can be confusion for an aspiring skier)
• You may want to point out on your summary slide at 00:50 that hip-rotation=hips out=skid=skis on base and angulation=hips in=carve=skis on edge.
• I like the middle section with the captions and particularly like the frame comparison. So, good stuff!

Thanks for your feedback. I will make the suggested changes. Its very easy to start expanding the consept beyond the very simple consept of hip rotation. Like Im doing active strong "femure rotation" at one point in the sequence in combination with tipping, angulation and counter. It doesent show well since speed is slow and movements are quite subtle. Im using active weight transfer that later on morphs into passive weight transfer. Tipping with my ancles. Tipping with my inside foot. Relesing. Flexing. Pulling inside foot back. Keep my weight forward. etc. Lots of stuff. This all comes apart when I start rotating my hips outwards.

 

Bump

What in your mind starts your turn?  Is it hip movement?  In both your sample movements (I only looked at the "updated" version), you begin turns by loading the new outside ski.  In you "bad", you do it by moving your hip over the ski.  In your "good" you push your hip inside.

Why not begin your turn by releasing the edges (foot maneuver) instead of leg/hip maneuver? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson 

What in your mind starts your turn?  Is it hip movement?  In both your sample movements (I only looked at the "updated" version), you begin turns by loading the new outside ski.  In you "bad", you do it by moving your hip over the ski.  In your "good" you push your hip inside.

 

Why not begin your turn by releasing the edges (foot maneuver) instead of leg/hip maneuver? 

What would happen to your hip if you started the turn with a relese? And what kind of relese movement are you talking about? Flexion of the outside leg?
 

If you are making good linked turns, you are continuing your old turn until you reduce edging enough to release the skis toward the new turn. 

The release itself will be the culmination of activities begun well before the end of the old turn that include allowing the COM (hips in general) to begin moving--from as far inside the old turn as needed to accomplish the intent--toward neutral and then on to inside the next turn, along with gradual equalizing of weight on the skis. 

Doesn't matter whether you flex or extend the legs, the action begins with the feet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson 

If you are making good linked turns, you are continuing your old turn until you reduce edging enough to release the skis toward the new turn. 

 

The release itself will be the culmination of activities begun well before the end of the old turn that include allowing the COM (hips in general) to begin moving--from as far inside the old turn as needed to accomplish the intent--toward neutral and then on to inside the next turn, along with gradual equalizing of weight on the skis. 

 

Doesn't matter whether you flex or extend the legs, the action begins with the feet.

 

 

So what did I do differently  ?!? Im relesing and allowing the CoM to begin moving from as far inside the old turn as needed towards neutral and then as far inside the next turn as needed. The weight distribution between the feet and skis is gradual and equalizing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson 

Doesn't matter whether you flex or extend the legs, the action begins with the feet.

 

 

Checked the video myself and yes, action begins with the feet.

 

My point was your focus was on moving the hips.  I thought the focus should be on using the feet and allowing the hip movement.

Very good video with demos.  The narrative adds a great deal to it.

I agree with Kneale on focusing on movements starting as close to snow as possible.  In this case with the feet.

Now, what level skier is this video focused on?  As I see it, it should be with an upper beginner/lower intermediate.  This type of skier should already have been taught to tip to inititate the turn.  Thus it is appropriate to focus on how the kinetic chain moves down the hill.  The foot tips, the new inside leg moves down the hill, the hip follows, all positive and efficient moves in the direction the skier wants to go.

It's all about efficient movements going down the hill.

Thanks for your input boyz and for your nice comments on the way its presenting the problem. Whish it also could come up with the solution.... and make people ski better. Im not claiming or even thinking that I can do this stuff better than everyone else, simply trying to present a problem and a solution. There might be other solutions as well. This is IMHO mine.

Kneale, good point. I should tweek the narrative. If you go back and check on the first version you can see that Ive changed stuff in order to make it "better". Im all ears and "you" can make all the difference. So, tell me what I should cut out and what to add in or replace. Too bad the skiing is taped and we cannot fix that. Thats all we got for now.

T-Square, its a chicken/egg thing. Do we wait for people to become intermediates before we fix obvious misstakes or do we start teaching correct movements right from the start? I think all levels can benefit from this lesson except maybe kids and people that think they know it all. They BTW will never learn anything.

You are talking about the CoM flowing down hill and the kinetic chain. This might work for some but not for others. Here in europe this consept is not very widely spread. We are not so scientific about skiing. Hips are hips and our feet are stuck in our boots. Im a believer in simultanious movements. Theoretically if you start tipping your feet your hips will be late and momentarily in a week position. Depending on when you start your feet tipping action offcourse. The whole ide is to offset your hips into the turn. If you cannot get your skis out from under your hips there will not be any tipping. That means no turning. If you tip your feet (femure rotation for example) and your hips are over your skis the skis will turn and your hips will be caught in a week position and you will skid your tails or other bad stuff. If you want to know what a wedge is good for its for this exact reason. If you stand in a wedge position and transfer your weight to one ski your hips will be inside the turn and that will give you a very strong position. Thats what the Hungarians were doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson 

My point was your focus was on moving the hips.  I thought the focus should be on using the feet and allowing the hip movement.

People have been writing books about skiing that all boils down to what I was doing in the videoclip. Its all there. My focus is on hips, what "hip rotation" is and one way to cure it. I dont intend to turn it into a double featured horror movie

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdk6 

 

T-Square, its a chicken/egg thing. Do we wait for people to become intermediates before we fix obvious misstakes or do we start teaching correct movements right from the start? I think all levels can benefit from this lesson except maybe kids and people that think they know it all. They BTW will never learn anything.

You are talking about the CoM flowing down hill and the kinetic chain. This might work for some but not for others. Here in europe this consept is not very widely spread. We are not so scientific about skiing. Hips are hips and our feet are stuck in our boots. Im a believer in simultanious movements. Theoretically if you start tipping your feet your hips will be late and momentarily in a week position. Depending on when you start your feet tipping action offcourse. The whole ide is to offset your hips into the turn. If you cannot get your skis out from under your hips there will not be any tipping. That means no turning. If you tip your feet (femure rotation for example) and your hips are over your skis the skis will turn and your hips will be caught in a week position and you will skid your tails or other bad stuff. If you want to know what a wedge is good for its for this exact reason. If you stand in a wedge position and transfer your weight to one ski your hips will be inside the turn and that will give you a very strong position. Thats what the Hungarians were doing.

If you didn't teach folks to step onto their new outside ski in a wedge to start turning, you wouldn't have the problems you have when you try to teach them to ski without the wedge.  I start wedge turns to the right by reducing the edging of my right ski and allowing the weight transfer to the left ski to occur progressively and naturally as the turn develops.  I do exactly the same thing when not using a wedge.

I hadn't seen a 40 year pin before, Kneale.  Cool!  Is it new?

It came to my home in MI last winter while I was at Breck,  Chris.  I'd been awaiting one ever since I first saw one several years ago.  I've only ever seen a couple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson 

 

 

If you didn't teach folks to step onto their new outside ski in a wedge to start turning, you wouldn't have the problems you have when you try to teach them to ski without the wedge.  I start wedge turns to the right by reducing the edging of my right ski and allowing the weight transfer to the left ski to occur progressively and naturally as the turn develops.  I do exactly the same thing when not using a wedge.

The wedge is a typical chicken and egg thing but at least I dont have to teach my students to how to get rid of banking since they learn how to angulate straight from the start .
 

Isn't that special !

If you don't do what tdk6 says, you're teaching banking.

This is my nomination for IOM.

TDK6,

I think you might want to review the definition of hip rotation, counter and angulation. You seem to be getting them all confused.   It is also clear you do not understand Indpendent Leg Steering (ILS) vs. rotation, and how they contrast each other. 

At no point in those vids do you show hip rotation as it is traditionally defined.....instead your video shows angulation with counter vs. some really contrived version, of well almost "reverse angulation", but still using ILS to intiate the turn.

This is obvious to any certified instructor.  If you truly had hip roation, your outside ski tip would lead the turn, or at least lead the turn intiation....it doesnt.  In all cases your inside tip leads, (which is good btw).  This is becuase you are applying independent leg steering, (again a good thing), but then trying to add rotation over top of it....impossible.  This is why independent leg steering is so powerful, and taught.  If you wanted to demonstrate upper body or hip rotation you would use the hip or upper body to force the turn, and not execute any independent leg steering at all.  Because you did execute ILS your attempts to show rotation or its negative effects of it were negated...instead your video only showed angulation vs. reverse angulation...and perhpas the positive and negative effects of that....but of course the image you presented was messy do to the rotation attempt. 

Since ILS is a learned skill, it is often missing thus many low skill level skiers intiate with upper body rotation.  I have never seen anyone that can perform ILS, then try to rotate over top for the purpose of turn intiation.  I have seen it in situations where people are trying to restore rotational balance....like DH racers, or freeskiers ripping big lines in the pow at high speed...but that is a good thing, and of course they dont do it with that "reverse angulation" thing you did.  But of course I understand that was not the intent of your demo.

I know this board has had the terminology debate a million times, but in a setting like this where the majority of communication is in the written form, it is very important the terminology is used in the proper and common meaning.  Going about and creating your own definitions of everything, or redefining terms to suit your argument is of limited value to the readership.  It creates confusion when people see terms used in a miriad of ways....without question you are the worst offender in this regard.

Oh but having said that....good video editing skills.  The comments, if correct, would have added a lot  of value.  Also the camera work is well done, clear, with no shakes.

Way too posed TDK. In a way it's a good example of exaggerating movements in a "drill" to isolate and develop that skill. Unfortunately, when you exaggerate moves they are no longer as accurate.