what is wrong with my edges????

hi everyone

ive got a pair of rossignol scratch blings which ive been skiing on all season. i was recently at revelstoke and had them tuned (wax, edges and filled in 1 or 2 small scratches on the base). im no expert on tuning btw, this season is the first time ive ever owned a pair of skis

when i first got back out after i had them tuned i noticed the edges were really really sharp. i thought that was relatively normal and even kind of cool as it was gripping hard to the ice and hard pack, but now about 5 or 6 skiing days later it still feels very weird and is becoming increasingly difficult to ski on in hard snow.

basically what i've noticed is

- the slightest movement from me causes the skis to bite hard into the snow. sometimes i'll turn slightly for example to avoid someone ahead of me, or maybe do something as subtle as turn my head to look around me and suddenly i'll feel like the ski is pushing me into a "proper" turn

- the above point is particularly noticable towards the back of the ski. the part of the ski behind my bindings tends to bite harder than the front and at more unpredictable times

- its very difficult to go from edge to edge because once the ski has its edge in it doesnt seem to want to let go

id appreciate anyone's help on what is wrong and how to fix it, as it is really making it very difficult for me right now and is just taking away all the confidence i had in how my skis are going to react.

thanks

Dave

Alright, I'll try to answer things, bearing in mind that I'm fairly new to the tuning game, though I have a fair bit of skiing/racing background.  If some of the more experience tuning guys correct me, you're best to go with their answers.

Do you know what the base and edge bevel the tuning shop did for your skiis? 

Base angle has quite a bit of effect upon how easily your skiis will go on edge.  A very small base angle (<1.0) would typically make a ski very "grabby" and cause it to do things like go on edge and initiate a "proper" turn with only the slightest bit of inclination.  Usually you'd go for small base angle on a set of Slalom race skiis. 

As for the ski being difficult to transition from edge to edge, that would be more to do with your edge angle.  In this case more edge angle (>2) usually makes the ski stay on edge more, meaning you've got to put a bit more effort into getting them to switch from edge to edge. 

Generally for recreational or all-mountain type skiis you'd get a 2deg edge and 1 deg base angle.  I would suggest going to a shop where they'll be able to tell you what angle your skiis have been tuned to, and if they've been set to something weird, you may want to get them redone to something more typical. 

I think you may have put racing slicks on a dune buggy.  What I mean by this is that your skis are park and back-country skis (neither places need much of an edge), I don't know what the factory tune on them is but I am sure its not very aggressive as it would not be conducive the the terrain they were designed to be skied on.   The shop may have put a more aggressive tune on them then what was on them from the factory, or since you have only skied rentals prior to owning these you may just not be accustomed to properly tuned skis.....it takes some getting used to.  I remember when I got my first pair of carvers they seemed to grab at all the wrong times.

You said that the edges felt very sharp, that might indicate that there was a hanging burr, that would greatly contribute to the railing affect that you describe.  Also as mentioned by Neuroski your base bevels may have been set to 0, meaning that there is no bevel, that would make the skis react extremely quickly to the slightest pressure, you typically only find such bevels on race slalom skis that are intended for very precise, high angle, short turns.

Lastly there is a chance that your bases are concave, in other words you may need a base grind. If the bases are below the edges, then the skis will behave very erratically, they will be grabby and very difficult to control.

You probably should bring them back into the shop and describe to them what you are experiencing and ask what they set your bevels to.

We used to "de-tune" the tips and tails of straight skis to make them easier to initiate turns and unhook the edges to finish turns.  It is basically slightly dulling the edges at and near the tips and tails of the ski.  Most folks don't do that anymore, particularly on shaped racing or carving skis.  But, for a park and pipe ski I might consider de-tuning as long as you are OK with losing some of the ice hold.  Warning, if you decide to do so, do NOT over do it.  A  very light pass of very fine file or stone along the edges of the very front and back 10% of the ski should be sufficient.

Edited by crgildart - 4/7/2009 at 12:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

 

We used to "de-tune" the tips and tails of straight skis to make them easier to initiate turns and unhook the edges to finish turns.  It is basically slightly dulling the edges at and near the tips and tails of the ski.  Most folks don't do that anymore, particularly on shaped racing or carving skis.  But, for a park and pipe ski I might consider de-tuning as long as you are OK with losing some of the ice hold.  Warning, if you decide to do so, do NOT over do it.  A  very light pass of very fine file or stone along the edges of the very front and back 10% of the ski should be sufficient.

Edited by crgildart - 4/7/2009 at 12:31 pm

Edited by crgildart - 4/7/2009 at 03:11 pm

NO! 

Listen to Richie and Alpinord.! almost 100% sure it is a hanging burr! Ya can't believe how many "Shop Tuners" don't know this crucial important step in the tuning process! The OP's situaion is exactly what motivated me to learn to tune myself!
 

Concavity will not do this unless it extends edge to edge. As long as you have about 26mm (1 inch) flat in towards the center of the base from each edge your skis will ski fine. 

#1) Hanging Burr most likely cause

#2) Underbeveled 

There is no such thing as being too sharp if the geometry is correct and the edge is properly polished and burr free!
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atomicman 

 

 

Listen to Richie and Alpinord.! almost 100% sure it is a hanging burr! Ya can't believe how many "Shop Tuners" don't know this crucial important step in the tuning process! The OP's situaion is exactly what motivated me to learn to tune myself!
 

definately try a stone to remove any burrs first.  I would only try a slight de-tune for a park/pipe or full blown bump ski if the above step doesn't resolve the issue.  Not at all recommended anymore for any other utility such as front side carving or racing.

Could be a hanging burr, could be under-bevel of the base edge, could be railed (concave) bases.  All have bitten me at some point.

That said, I think I have identified a similar, but less common, issue that only manifests itself on ice.  Run your fingernail across the base towards the edge.  Does it drag or catch on any portion of the edge?  Does it snag at the intersection between the ptex and the edge?  Like a hanging burr, even small imperfections can cause the edges to feel draggy on ice.  If it's enough to snag or catch a fingernail, it needs to be smoothed or honed out.

While I agree that a hanging burr is all too likely, it is a bit inconsistent with he OP getting 5-6 days in before having troubles...

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbrad66 

While I agree that a hanging burr is all too likely, it is a bit inconsistent with he OP getting 5-6 days in before having troubles...

Not neccessarily true. snow conditons have a big impact on how a ski with a hanging burr reacts.
 

Really nice packed powder it normally does not show up much, but with icy patches or very wet snow a hanging burr will cause total havoc!

I quote

"when i first got back out after i had them tuned i noticed the edges were really really sharp. i thought that was relatively normal and even kind of cool as it was gripping hard to the ice and hard pack, but now about 5 or 6 skiing days later it still feels very weird and is becoming increasingly difficult to ski on in hard snow."

So your theory that the skis were fine and then became weird is not what the OP said! He said they still felt weird after 5 or 6 days!

the comment that the skis do not want to come off of edge leads me to believe that a hanging burr is indeed at least part of the problem. Inconsistent base bevel is alos possible

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atomicman 

 

  

I quote

"when i first got back out after i had them tuned i noticed the edges were really really sharp. i thought that was relatively normal and even kind of cool as it was gripping hard to the ice and hard pack, but now about 5 or 6 skiing days later it still feels very weird and is becoming increasingly difficult to ski on in hard snow."

 

So your theory that the skis were fine and then became weird is not what the OP said! He said they still felt weird after 5 or 6 days!

 

my bad - i didnt read close enough.  my first self tune i left such a burr.  felt like a rank beginner out there any time the skis went edge.  or i was drunk and didnt know it.  amazing how that little bit of metal had such a huge negative impact

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbrad66 

 

my bad - i didnt read close enough.  my first self tune i left such a burr.  felt like a rank beginner out there any time the skis went edge.  or i was drunk and didnt know it.  amazing how that little bit of metal had such a huge negative impact

Yes, it is amzing how a microscopic hanging burr can cause such havoc with your skis.

i actually having a bit of a problem with my new Monster 88's I have polished the heck out of the base edge and they fairly consistently read 1 degree base bevel. but they have  just a bit of that odd grabbiness. (Particulrly noticeable this time of year with wet snow sprinkled with ice patches. they just have a bit of that railed feeling and unpredictablity!

I had to have them stoneground before i even skied on them because the base bevel was not only very uneven but wwas in place 2-3 degrees. there is still aspot that is about 2 degrees that did not get to -0- after the grind. it could be that 2 degree spot in the midst of a 1 degree edge is causing the problem. I tuned them as I do all my skis and all my other pair are skiing amazingly well.

I am with Atomicman. I would never detune a pair of skis. I have a "Park set of skis" but I do not partake in rails or boxes. I do not feel like trashing my skis. The reason i would never detune a park ski, especially a twin tip.......is for the most part I think they all ski like garbage....but I like.......no love my raceroom skis.

I'd never base bevel a pair of skis.  I want mine flat and true.  Once you bevel the edges on the base side you have to knock a considerable amount of base down to make them flat again. 

So what happened to OP anyway?

Are you joking or what?

it is a given that bases are flat or at least flat 1" in from each edge.  Base bevel and base edge bevel are used interchangably!

No one here is talking about beveling their bases

Umm, I thought folks that said a 1* base and 3* side meant they bevel the base at 1 degree and sidewall at 3 degrees.  I go zero zero on everything.  I feel that angling an edge beyond 90 degrees shortens its lifespan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atomicman 

 

Yes, it is amzing how a microscopic hanging burr can cause such havoc with your skis.

 

 (Particulrly noticeable this time of year with wet snow sprinkled with ice patches. they just have a bit of that railed feeling and unpredictablity!

 

 

Edited by Atomicman - 4/11/2009 at 09:28 pm GMT

I'll second that.  I've had skis which were fine on solid ice, fine on packed powder, but the second you hit packed wet snow or snow with a styrofoam like texture you were dead.  Damn near unskiable.  I've seen it from a burr or edge to edge concavity.

I never ski with dull edges, and never de-tune anything.  Dull edges are the gateway to bad technique....you plan on skidding and stop trying to carve.

crgildart:

I used to base bevel AND detune my ballet skis.  No hanging burrs there no siree.  I don't detune shaped skis, don't own true twin tip park skis, just bump skis, SLs, GS, all mountain, and POW skis.  I most definitely detune my late 80s bump skis though.   

btw.. me thinks oz is a troll..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atomicman 

 

i actually having a bit of a problem with my new Monster 88's I have polished the heck out of the base edge and they fairly consistently read 1 degree base bevel. but they have  just a bit of that odd grabbiness. (Particulrly noticeable this time of year with wet snow sprinkled with ice patches. they just have a bit of that railed feeling and unpredictablity!

 

Let me know if you figure this out -- I had a pair of skis (old pair of Heads, coincidentally) get that grabby feeling at the tips, despite having correct bevels and flat bases.  I polished the heck out of the edges to no avail.  I suspect it was actually the inside seam between the edge and the p-tex, but never verified that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skier219 

 

 

Let me know if you figure this out -- I had a pair of skis (old pair of Heads, coincidentally) get that grabby feeling at the tips, despite having correct bevels and flat bases.  I polished the heck out of the edges to no avail.  I suspect it was actually the inside seam between the edge and the p-tex, but never verified that.

The transition from steel edge to plastic base is smooth on my skis. I am going to put a minute amout of additional bevel on them and make sure the side edge is highly polished and try again.  My MOJO 94's, SS Speed and i.sl RD's have none of this going on!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by skier219 

 

 

Let me know if you figure this out -- I had a pair of skis (old pair of Heads, coincidentally) get that grabby feeling at the tips, despite having correct bevels and flat bases.  I polished the heck out of the edges to no avail.  I suspect it was actually the inside seam between the edge and the p-tex, but never verified that.

I increased the base bevel slightly on my Monster 88's and they are skiing much better. Also repolished the side edges.

I spoke with the guys at SVST and they suggested that I measure the base bevel with the ski standing on it's side in the vise like you would measure the side edge bevel rather then lying flat like you would normally measure base edge bevel. I am using the SVST Bevel-meter.

They claim because of the way the tool hangs on the ski in the base towards you postion the  base bevel readng is more accurate. It is more difficult to read the Bevel-meter scale but with a light and some contortions it is readily readable.

In this position, I was a bit under beveled. Next time I ski (early in the morning the snow will be damn hard)I will confirm the problem is gone. I have only skied them in fairly soft and fairly wet snow since adding additional bevel. But normally all that moisture and a bi of compression (Linoleum snow)  Plays havoc if youhave a hanging burr or a re underbeveled.

In regard to your problem apparantly in the tip only, this could be caused by concavity, in that your bevel tool is sitting low in the middle of the base causing an underbeveled area where the base has a low spot in the tip.
 

I would add a slight amount of additional base edge bevel from the contact point for about 2-3 inches back towards the tail and see how that works.

Cool, I'd be curious to know the final verdict.

I did have one pair (Heads again, but new ones this time) that I underbeveled due to concavity at the tip, and that was a PITA until I figured it out.  That's when I built an edge to edge base bevel jig to avoid the pitfall of having the small SVST jig always riding in the valley.