The Up move

#1
Rating: 0

Tell me why I teach it. 

 

www.YourSkiCoach.com

YOUR SKI COACH  -  Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

* Instructional DVDs   * Technical Articles   * On Hill Coaching

www.YourSkiCoach.com
Export to Wiki
#2
Rating: 0

Just curious. I went through your first 4 DVDs and I really don't see if there is an emphrasis on it. Want to tell more?

Export to Wiki
#3
Rating: 0

I don't know unless it's because (at least for me) under some conditions it just makes things easyer .

I would certainly like to read some better responses .

Skiing to Nirvana

Export to Wiki
#4
Rating: 0

The go to up move is still there right to the end....looks like Janice is having a hard time shaking it.Little  wonder if she has been taught it and used it for the average intermediate learning cycle of 5-20 years.

 

Those Eastern demo team candidates couldn't shake it either, so I'm not sure why you make comment late in the video that she has shed herself of the unneeded upmove. Her release is all about the extension, clearly you like it, teach it and it sticks.

 

 

Export to Wiki
#5
Rating: 0

Because it has it's place in certain conditions and certain terrain, as well as being better for having it in your bag of tricks.

 

The more you know and master, the better you'll become.

There is no Darkside of the moon. It's all dark

Export to Wiki
#6
Rating: 0

This I take it is a promotional thread, yes?

Export to Wiki
#7
Rating: 0

Rick, when I was skiing with you and Janis yesterday, I tried more up movement when skiing the "fluff."  I found that slight movement helped me negotiate it more easily, a completely new experience for me and fluffy snow. 

Ski like a redneck!

Export to Wiki
#8
Rating: 0

So I take from your sarcasam Ashski that you think that there is no place for the up move ,that it shouldn't be taught . How about giving some reasons .

 

Skiing to Nirvana

Export to Wiki
#9
Rating: 0

Precision work, when force isn't required, is best done with lightly loaded legs.

 

Either that or you just want to piss off all the pmsers.

Export to Wiki
#10
Rating: 0

  Because it assists the revival of the steered turn?

finesse + balance + a big grin  skiing

"The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so."
William Alanson White
Export to Wiki
#11
Rating: 0

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

 

Because it has it's place in certain conditions and certain terrain, as well as being better for having it in your bag of tricks.

 

The more you know and master, the better you'll become.

 

Lars,

Certain is certainly a handy wiggle word... almost as handy as bag of tricks

 

D'ya care to elaborate for those of us without ESP or crystal ball?  When is UP distinctly preferable to not-UP?

 


 

That's an interesting take you have on knowledge bloat.  In the tech field, folks do daily battle with feature bloat and code bloat.  Too many good things make a bad product ,,, or too many cooks spoilt the broth.   How is it different in sports education and competitive sports? 

finesse + balance + a big grin  skiing

"The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so."
William Alanson White
Export to Wiki
#12
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post

 

Just curious. I went through your first 4 DVDs and I really don't see if there is an emphrasis on it. Want to tell more?


 

There are a few drills in Building Blocks that employ this type of transition.  The knee bends,,, hops,,, counter hops,,, start short finish tall,,, the inside to inside drill,,, all the thousand steps drills.  There's good reason they're included in the progressions.  I'll get to it in time. 

 

www.YourSkiCoach.com


Edited by Rick - 4/5/2009 at 02:23 am


Edited by Rick - 4/5/2009 at 02:50 am
YOUR SKI COACH  -  Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

* Instructional DVDs   * Technical Articles   * On Hill Coaching

www.YourSkiCoach.com
Export to Wiki
#13
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spinoza View Post

 

I don't know unless it's because (at least for me) under some conditions it just makes things easier .

 


 

Hi spinoza, thanks for participating.  I bet if you explored that idea a little more you'd start us zeroing in on some specific answers to the thread question.

YOUR SKI COACH  -  Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

* Instructional DVDs   * Technical Articles   * On Hill Coaching

www.YourSkiCoach.com
Export to Wiki
#14
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski View Post

 

The go to up move is still there right to the end....looks like Janice is having a hard time shaking it.Little  wonder if she has been taught it and used it for the average intermediate learning cycle of 5-20 years.

 

Those Eastern demo team candidates couldn't shake it either, so I'm not sure why you make comment late in the video that she has shed herself of the unneeded upmove. Her release is all about the extension, clearly you like it, teach it and it sticks.

 

 


 

It's Janis, not Janice.  

YOUR SKI COACH  -  Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

* Instructional DVDs   * Technical Articles   * On Hill Coaching

www.YourSkiCoach.com
Export to Wiki
#15
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

 

Because it has it's place in certain conditions and certain terrain, as well as being better for having it in your bag of tricks.

 

The more you know and master, the better you'll become.


 

Yep Lars, right on!!  Expert skiing is all about versatility.  Down the road in this thread we'll get into some specifics. 

YOUR SKI COACH  -  Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

* Instructional DVDs   * Technical Articles   * On Hill Coaching

www.YourSkiCoach.com
Export to Wiki
#16
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski View Post

 

This I take it is a promotional thread, yes?


 

Yes.  Promoting a broad set of skills, and effective ways of teaching. 

YOUR SKI COACH  -  Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

* Instructional DVDs   * Technical Articles   * On Hill Coaching

www.YourSkiCoach.com
Export to Wiki
#17
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SugarCube View Post

 

Rick, when I was skiing with you and Janis yesterday, I tried more up movement when skiing the "fluff."  I found that slight movement helped me negotiate it more easily, a completely new experience for me and fluffy snow. 


 

Yes, I bet it was feeling good.  It's a cool feeling, isn't it,,, that between turn float!  It's fun, Nancy, watching your skiing and your confidence take another leap this season.      Big congrats!!

YOUR SKI COACH  -  Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

* Instructional DVDs   * Technical Articles   * On Hill Coaching

www.YourSkiCoach.com
Export to Wiki
#18
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

 

Precision work, when force isn't required, is best done with lightly loaded legs.

 

Either that or you just want to piss off all the pmsers.


 

PMS???  Hmmmmm,,, guess that could explain some of the 'ornery responses. 

 

Good point on the load/finesse relationship.

YOUR SKI COACH  -  Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

* Instructional DVDs   * Technical Articles   * On Hill Coaching

www.YourSkiCoach.com
Export to Wiki
#19
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

 

  Because it assists the revival of the steered turn?


 

Well,,, no,,,, not really that closely related.  That's why I started a new thread. 

YOUR SKI COACH  -  Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

* Instructional DVDs   * Technical Articles   * On Hill Coaching

www.YourSkiCoach.com
Export to Wiki
#20
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

 

 

D'ya care to elaborate for those of us without ESP or crystal ball or enough knowledge to understand?  When is UP distinctly preferable to not-UP.

 


 


 

Up and out of the heavy snow today was a very effective move.  Leaving the ski in the rather heavy powder and trying to just release wasn't as effective as getting the ski out of the junk to start the next turn.  The snow in spots today was thick enough early in the day to feel pressure against the boots. 

 

When you want to ADD pressure to the ski to start the turn.

 

When you start the turn just before a spot on the hill where you have to suddenly absorb.  In this case if you flex and send your CM down the hill and you have to absorb terrain shortly thereafter you would have no ability to flex if you are already flexed.

 

Oh....and I did alter your your original post Sharpedges.  I think it's a bit more accurate the way I have it.

Export to Wiki
#21
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

 

  Because it assists the revival of the steered turn?


 

Naw,  You can move vertically and ski arc to arc without any steering.

Export to Wiki
#22
Rating: 0

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski View Post

 

Those Eastern demo team candidates couldn't shake it either.

 

 

You don't know that that wasn't part of the task (and I admittedly don't know that it was). At Eastern Dev TEam tryouts two of the tasks were hop to shape and leapers. Both of which obviously employ an up move. I'm pretty sure that the purpose of these tasks is not to promote an up move, but to see what happens when the skis come of the ground as well as to see if the candidate is versatile enough to do both.

Export to Wiki
#23
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 

 

You don't know that that wasn't part of the task (and I admittedly don't know that it was). At Eastern Dev TEam tryouts two of the tasks were hop to shape and leapers. Both of which obviously employ an up move. I'm pretty sure that the purpose of these tasks is not to promote an up move, but to see what happens when the skis come of the ground as well as to see if the candidate is versatile enough to do both.

 
 

 

A few leaps in this video with no up move and I would bet if the purpose was to demo more air there still wouldn't be any up move.......at least nothing resembling those semi out of control demo team candidates from the east.

 

 edit: I pulled your link. You should know that is not allowed. - epic


Edited by epic - 4/5/2009 at 01:01 pm
Export to Wiki
#24
Rating: 0

I would be pretty p.ssed off if the instructor I was paying taught me an up move while progressing through the learning and intermediate stages then he told me to "shed it"........but of course keep a bit of it in my bag of tricks for when the occasional big dump hits.

 

Trouble I see is I'm now paying the ski coach for another dozen lessons or more to get rid of the up move. Who's the winner in this process? Surely the up move could be easily tacked onto the advanced/expert skier's lesson.

 

 

So what is PSIA and CSIA replacing the releasing upmove with, according to CSIA & PSIA  instructors comments I read on that other forum it's being phased out, but no one's quite sure what with?

Export to Wiki
#25
Rating: 0

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski View Post

 


 

 

A few leaps in this video with no up move and I would bet if the purpose was to demo more air there still wouldn't be any up move.......at least nothing resembling those semi out of control demo team candidates from the east.

 

 

 

So can you LEAP or HOP without an "up move"?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the "up move" is this great thing, but there's a point where railing against it just gets ridiculous.

Export to Wiki
#26
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski View Post

 

I would be pretty p.ssed off if the instructor I was paying taught me an up move while progressing through the learning and intermediate stages then he told me to "shed it"........but of course keep a bit of it in my bag of tricks for when the occasional big dump hits.

 

Trouble I see is I'm now paying the ski coach for another dozen lessons or more to get rid of the up move. Who's the winner in this process? Surely the up move could be easily tacked onto the advanced/expert skier's lesson.

 

 

So what is PSIA and CSIA replacing the releasing upmove with, according to CSIA & PSIA  instructors comments I read on that other forum it's being phased out, but no one's quite sure what with?

NEXT!
 

 

Diagonal movement has long been a part of both systems (PSIA & CSIA).  I was working with it with my Canadian director (at a US ski area) as early as 1974.  Vertical motion was also being taught.

 

Readers here should be aware that vertical motion (flex and extend) doesn't always mean that it is only a means to unweight.

 

OK Ashski,  here is a valid reason to use up (in addition to what I have already posted here).  I have taught many timid students that have a fear of letting (or trying to put) the hip outside of the base of support of the skis.  Timid students often also won't flex & extend or move laterally and tend to find what they consider to be a stable POSITION and they stay there.  This is typically a student who skis in a real panic almost all the time.

 

So Ashski,  above is your student.  Are you going to try to tell me that teaching lateral to this person is going to be easier and more effective than vertical? I say no. The issue with this student is getting ANY movement at all.

 

Teach the up move and as soon as possible (soon as your student shows comfort with flex and extend) start working to get the CM to move diagonally as well,  then just diagonally. 

 

As far as your video goes.  Watch a few of the same skier skiing groomed runs with the same radius as the one you linked to here.  You will note that the head doesn't get any farther from the snow on the groomed trails.  The same can't be said for the video you linked to.  There is an up move though it isn't used to unweight. You actually alluded to it in your own post (# 23 here) when you said there were "a few leaps".  If you "release" to start the turn the CM goes laterally.  If you "leap" the CM goes up.  HH in the video "leaps" (to use your terminology).  That's an up (terrain unweighting actually) move.  It can't be accomplished if you release to start the turn.

 

 

Export to Wiki
#27
Rating: 0

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

 There are a few drills in Building Blocks that employ this type of transition. ...all the thousand steps drills. 

I C, thanks for clarification. Yes, I did follow some of the drills and especially the thousand steps, carving version. I was just unaware that there are up-move. When I had in mind when I put up the question was an up-to-release-move. In fact I have a couple of questions on the thousand steps drills. I ll wait a little longer to see if I get the solution by doing more.

Export to Wiki
#28
Rating: 0


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 

 

 

So can you LEAP or HOP without an "up move"?

 

 


 

Looks like you and I were typing at the same time

Export to Wiki
#29
Rating: 0

An up and back move is different from an up and forward move.

 

Up and back moves the skier up the hill. In that context it would be as Ashski described a braking (arrests our momentum and introduces an opposite momentum) move most here would try to eliminate in their everyday skiing. In other words since it stops our downhill momentum it isn't viewed as a contemporary skiing movement. That being said we see this "old" move all the time as skiers use a variation of this called a checking maneuver to control their speed, or facilitate an edge change. Rebound from the skis is the result of this checking maneuver and in the past it was common to see this in a slalom race. One of the most famous pictures of Phil Mahre's slalom wins demonstrates this very vividly. Fast forward to today's slalom racing and it is rarely seen in the same hard edge set way, which would explain why modern teaching pros try to eliminate it. Although I would say if you know what to look for you will still see it being used every time a racer's skis converge. A recovery and line adjusting move if you will. This is why I feel the rotary push off move (RPM) still has validity within the context of specific situations that call for the outcome it produces.

A very common but often overlooked variation is the hop turn used by most freeriders when they are setting up above a cliff. This is a very valid modern use of this maneuver since the alternative is to ski into the rocks, or off the cliff directly below them. Not exactly a positive outcome and as many of those skiers will tell you they don't have enough snow to shape a turn on. They are jumping from one patch of snow to the next and arresting that downhill momentum is a matter of life and death, literally.

As I mentioned earlier we keep suggesting to our students RPM's are such a bad thing. In reality the RPM is just one tactical choice available and in certain situations the most effective and appropriate choice. A few weeks ago I was out with BB and Annie Black playing in some of our lesser known tree lines. I was trying not to use any RPM's until I noticed both of them using more than an occasional RPM to stay in their chosen line. It pointed out how limited my thinking was that day and how I needed to open up my playbook and use whatever worked best to produce the intended outcome.

 

So what about up and forward? The ILE move is one form of this. Airplane (a corkscrew like edge change in the air) turns are another. Reaching turns are a third. Actually unless you are doing a retraction turn most transitions involve some variation of an up and over move. In retraction turns the up move becomes the extension and reaching to the side with the legs although some here would say it is the feet moving away from the body more than the body moving up and away from the skis. To me I see all of these as options. I use a little of both at times, I reach with the feet at times, and I reach (project) with the body at times. Although I really don't plan that far ahead to be honest. Like all technique decisions,when freeskiing, I try to make those choices on the fly. Tactically I have a clear focus on where I want to go and that is my strongest focus.That being said, I should point out that I spend the majority of my ski time doing demos for my students and trainees. Add to that I use most of my free time working on something with BB, Bobby Murphy, or Annie. So I really don't just go out and just ski very often. When I do, I shut off the techno-babble narrator and just make turns.

 

So Rick, IMO why you teach "up" has two answers. The simple answer is that "up moves" facilitate edge changes and linkage. The more complete answer is that it represents extending, which is half of the fundamental movements of flexing and extending. Otherwise know as our pressure control and management skills. IMO a wider range of motion in this arena facilitates better balancing skills in a wider variety of skiing situations. I apologize if I started to ramble and I'll get off my soapbox. Obviously, I feel strongly that RPM's have gotten a bad rap and no move is intrinsically good or bad. Use your entire playbook and learn when those moves are appropriate and you will never get stuck looking down a slope wondering how you're going to get down it.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 4/5/2009 at 02:47 pm
Export to Wiki
#30
Rating: 0

Up moves, I think they have their place.

 

There was no intention on this run, except to ski toward the camera & have fun.  There are probably a number of ways to ski the conditions here & be in more control, but I don't think it would have been as fun.  I for one am glad I have an up move in my library.

 

 

If it feels good, it is.

JF

"Apparently, a person who dives headfirst down an icy cliff wearing a spandex jumpsuit is supposed to celebrate with a nice glass of tea."

David Fehrety on Bode Millers 60 minutes interview

Export to Wiki