Ski Technology (big pow skis in general use) affects Skier interactions, heightens colision danger

This has been tangent to some posts about fat skis, but it is so pissing me off, that I want to make an issue of it.

Big skis are being used to go really fast in powder, and on my mountain, the first high-speed colision in powder that I have heard of has resulted between an errant straight-liner and an errant oblivious traverser.. And the perpetrator (str lnr) has been headed that way for a while; he has been way too close to me earlier this season on one of his hot runs. He's kind of a bud, but he really pissed me off wth that crap.

Powder used to lead skiers to smooth, silent running. Now it is conditions for hitting the highest speeds. Folks, note the change and make the necessary changes in how you make your crucial judgements regarding choice of line that will not rudely cut someone off or converge with them resulting in colision.

It's a sudden and huge change on the hill and folks need to figure it out (this isn't AK).

Jackson Hole - April Fool's Day - Rendezvous Bowl.

Straightliner:

Make sure you don't D-V-8 from the fall line or you will be run over.

I am guilty of straight-lining everything from powder to icy moguls, but I always had the ability to avoid people below me, or took the effort to ski somewhere where there was nobody below me, with one exception very early on when I wasn't absolutely sure there was nobody.  Nobody was there, but had there been someone there, things could have been ugly.  Thinking about that crash instilled caution in me to the extent that I managed to enjoy SG and DH speeds for decades without collisions.  My form was a little different than the pic above, more forward in a tuck, with skis under snow (just picture Steve Podborski on a DH course with powder spraying up from the skis).

These modern straightliners are giving us respectable old-time straight-liners a bad name.

^

I couldn't tell, was the blame put on the traverser or the straight liner?

As far as I'm concerned, the person traversing is merging with every possible line above him, and needs to yield to them. On marked runs you always yield to the people above you if you are joining or crossing a run, no reason that should change in an open bowl.

REASON?  Reeeeason!  We don't need no stinkin' REASON!

Quote:

Originally Posted by karpiel 

 

I couldn't tell, was the blame put on the traverser or the straight liner?

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, the person traversing is merging with every possible line above him, and needs to yield to them. On marked runs you always yield to the people above you if you are joining or crossing a run, no reason that should change in an open bowl.

 

 

 

The point is IT IS A MADHOUSE! out there on first lap.
 

This stuff used to only happen on the blue groomers with intermediates, but now fear the expert(-) on pow day with oversize sticks.

I should probably just add this, before you do, It's over now. Ordering, please! Huge Troubles, 184

post removed

Quote:

Originally Posted by karpiel 

 

I couldn't tell, was the blame put on the traverser or the straight liner?

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, the person traversing is merging with every possible line above him, and needs to yield to them. On marked runs you always yield to the people above you if you are joining or crossing a run, no reason that should change in an open bowl.

 

 

It doesn't matter if the person traversing the slope is crossing every "line" you may be envisioning, if he is downhill of you, he has the right of way. Worse yet, if  he can't even hear you because 1. he has an IPod or 2. you aren't making any sounds because of the snow conditions, you have to assume YOU are going to have to make a course correction. I do not traverse a slope, I do make turns but they are centered on a "line", but I do not ski faster than I can stop, with my bad knee and bad ankle, I cannot stomp a turn, either on a ski or on a board, and bombers irritate the ever livin' p*** outta me. Especially the ones I hear call, "Don't Turn (because I can't control myself)!" And yes, they don't say the last part but that's what the implication is....

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri 

 

This has been tangent to some posts about fat skis, but it is so pissing me off, that I want to make an issue of it.

 

Big skis are being used to go really fast in powder, and on my mountain, the first high-speed colision in powder that I have heard of has resulted between an errant straight-liner and an errant oblivious traverser.. And the perpetrator (str lnr) has been headed that way for a while; he has been way too close to me earlier this season on one of his hot runs. He's kind of a bud, but he really pissed me off wth that crap.

 

Powder used to lead skiers to smooth, silent running. Now it is conditions for hitting the highest speeds. Folks, note the change and make the necessary changes in how you make your crucial judgements regarding choice of line that will not rudely cut someone off or converge with them resulting in colision.

 

It's a sudden and huge change on the hill and folks need to figure it out (this isn't AK).

Um...I don't know you.  But it sure seems like you're whining. 

The same kinds of things were said about the hotdoggers in the 70's.  Look how they changes skiing for the better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcski 

 

 

 

Um...I don't know you.  But it sure seems like you're whining. 

 

The same kinds of things were said about the hotdoggers in the 70's.  Look how they changes skiing for the better.

Uhhhmmm... yeah. Most of the Hotdoggers in the 70's were on LSD, mushrooms or 'just' high as hell on ThC, are you suggesting that the current crop of unskilled 'Big Mountain' wannabe's are similar? Strange argument.

OP is not like Bigskis=Can't ski. I love big, fat skis, tool for the job and all that, quiver = toolbox.
 

What I am saying: new issues develop from new technology. You're out there on thousands of acres of snow. People are skiing at different speeds. Spread out in space and time. Figure it out. Then: It's all good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcski 

The whine, if there is one: you hit someone at that speed and you can end their season, or worse.

Wow this thread got UGLY!  One thing fat skis and lot of hype about skis that can do anything and handle anything has done is bring intermediates and beginners to expert slopes.  Worse, it gave some experts the feeling they can do anything anywhere.  Regardless if you should be there or shouldn't be there, if you traverse, do beautiful figure 8's or straight-line the rule is still the same; the uphill skier needs to be aware and avoid the downhill skier.  We may not like it because you may want to go fast and resent anyone who gets in your line but physics dictate that it is still your responsibility. 

Lets all go out, enjoy the mountain and be careful of those who are venturing out to territory they aren't to steady on, after all how else will they learn?

Quote:

Originally Posted by karpiel 

 

I couldn't tell, was the blame put on the traverser or the straight liner?

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, the person traversing is merging with every possible line above him, and needs to yield to them. On marked runs you always yield to the people above you if you are joining or crossing a run, no reason that should change in an open bowl.

 

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, you should get your lift ticked yanked before you kill someone. While you're at it, re-read the Code of Conduct, particularly #1 and #2.

The only thing missing from this is the rope.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Peters 

 

Jackson Hole - April Fool's Day - Rendezvous Bowl.

 

Straightliner:

 

 

Make sure you don't D-V-8 from the fall line or you will be run over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by csavage 

 

 

 

It doesn't matter if the person traversing the slope is crossing every "line" you may be envisioning, if he is downhill of you, he has the right of way. Worse yet, if  he can't even hear you because 1. he has an IPod or 2. you aren't making any sounds because of the snow conditions, you have to assume YOU are going to have to make a course correction. I do not traverse a slope, I do make turns but they are centered on a "line", but I do not ski faster than I can stop, with my bad knee and bad ankle, I cannot stomp a turn, either on a ski or on a board, and bombers irritate the ever livin' p*** outta me. Especially the ones I hear call, "Don't Turn (because I can't control myself)!" And yes, they don't say the last part but that's what the implication is....

What do you think of the Canadian code? Please do tell.

2. People ahead of you have the right-of-way.  It is your responsibility to avoid them.
A skier/rider’s path or line is determined by watching others movements and anticipating their direction changes.  Uphill skiers/riders must avoid the person downhill and never ski or ride close enough to that person to scare them or make them lose their concentration and control.  Many riders experience a “blind side”, so it is important to always be aware of what the skier/rider in front or alongside of you is doing.

Novice skiers/riders tend to make wider, less predictable turns and will sometimes traverse from one side of the run to the other.  Downhill skiers/ riders have the right of way, however they should not shoot across the hill without warning, or cut off other skiers/riders.  Always be in control.  If you have stopped on a slope, always check uphill before starting again to avoid interfering with others.

4. Before starting downhill or merging onto a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
It is the responsibility of the skier/boarder who is starting downhill or merging onto a trail to yield to those who are already on the trail.  If you have stopped on a trail and are about to resume, always look uphill to make sure that you do not move out in front of another skier or boarder.  When entering a trail, check for other skiers/boarders in order to avoid colliding with someone who is already on the trail.

It's just like driving, it's your fault if you hit someone ahead of you, it's their fault if they blindly pull out directly in front of you. No?

What part of "right of way" do you not understand?

Sure, if you're smart you won't be cutting people off.  You would no doubt rather be wrong than dead right.  That doesn't take away the downhill skier's right of way.

Merging onto a trial is not the same as turning across a trail you are already on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

 

Merging onto a trial is not the same as turning across a trail you are already on.

That is exactly what I was getting at. No matter the circumstances you always yield while merging, that is how accidents are avoided.  If you are merging onto a highway, you look and wait for a gap, you don't just drive onto it then claim you were down road so they had to yield.

Person uphill at fault. (stupid wide, easy run, victim was already on the run.)

Even if this wasn't a race, the person downhill was at fault. (blindly traversing onto a run behind a terrain feature) Even going slower, without air the collision would have been extremely hard to avoid.

EDIT: www.youtube.com/watch

And mutual stupidity.(lol)

Quote:

Originally Posted by karpiel 

 

 

 

It's just like driving, it's your fault if you hit someone ahead of you, it's their fault if they blindly pull out directly in front of you. No?

 

NO!  If you are going 70 mph on a 4 + lane highway in the left lane and another car going 60 mph changed from the right lane to the left lane ahead of you to go around an even slower driver it is YOUR responsibility to avoid them even though they changed in to your lane.  If another car pulls out from a side street in front of you and you hit them it might be their fault, but it might also be your fault even in that instance.  If your speed is determined to be excessive for conditions, or you were not devoting your full attention to driving and should have seen them and had time to avoid the collision YOU are at fault.  Same as skiing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

If you are going 70 mph on a 4 + lane highway in the left lane and another car going 60 mph changed from the right lane to the left lane ahead of you to go around an even slower driver it is YOUR responsibility to avoid them even though they changed in to your lane.

As I recall from driver's ed some 25 years ago, the driver of the car changing lanes has a responsibility to ensure that the lane change is safe.  If he doesn't have adequate space/time and make the change anyway, it's his fault.  Same thing when you've got a mandatory merge of one lane into the other -- if the driver in the lane that is ending doesn't have space to make the merge, that's on him.

None of which, frankly, has much to do with skiing.

As I understand the Code, the two arguably-conflicting provisions -- downhill skier has right of way, but merging or starting skier must look uphill and yield -- basically net out to: don't be an idiot.

Another analogy: I tell my kids that sure, they have the right of way in the crosswalk, but they still need to look and confirm that the cars are stopping before they step in the street.  They might be in the right, but they'd probably rather be alive and well.

When my son bought a pair of huge skis (191cm, 120mm) I told him: you are going to need a lot of space for those things. They are for one thing (compared to 174cm 100mm B-Squads he already has) going faster and straighter. OK, all good. Straight line big chutes and jump cliffs with run outs that are geographically separate from the general population of skiers. Safe and cool, right?

But many people are super-imposing a new style of powder skiing on a slope that is operating in a more traditional form, that is: steady, decent speed (25 -35mph), linked turns in the fall line, and linked GS type turns in the fall line (roughly). Safe and cool? not so much.

Adrenaline-stimulated rude and dangerous behavior is the natural first response for many skiers reacting to other  people already skiing where they want to ski. Again, not cool. Just the same old selfish- agressive mode.

New (6-8 years?) style, new skis, new thoughts. New ideas in skiing are totally exciting, even inspiring, but you have to employ fresh thinking and make it work.The solution isn't out there yet. And as evident ^^^^, the old over-simplified code doesn't cover all the situations.

(Without quoting everything, I gravitate toward whre Karp, Alpine, and Cgil are coming from, and bet skiing a slope they are on would be totally cool.)

If you are skiing at a speed you can not avoid a collision, you are out of control.  The better your skiing skills the less excuse you have for skiing out of control.  Nothing to do with new school old school, don't harm others.

Our mountains are not interstates.  There are not speed limits nor should there be.  If you are  going so fast you can not avoid obstructions what should you do; SLOW DOWN.  

Rule 1         Cause no harm.

Rule  2        Have Fun.

Rule  3        When in doubt return to rule 1.

Oh ya the courts have proved many times.  If thing go way wrong, the person out of control is at fault on the ski slope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stranger 

If you are skiing at a speed you can not avoid a collision, you are out of control.  The better your skiing skills the less excuse you have for skiing out of control.  Nothing to do with new school old school, don't harm others.

 

Sometimes they are unavoidable, like someone traversing across the exit of a mandatory straight line without looking.

How can there be any excuse for causing an avoidable accident?  So you walk 100', that is way better than blasting someone. 

Got hit by somebody doing mach 3 years ago, can tell you that it hurts A LOT!  Once I came back to the land of the living, I yanked the guys ticket (which was satisfieing) and skied on down on my only remaining functional ski.  Oh ya, took the other jokers skis with me so he could cause no more grief that day. 

It is not the size of the ski you choose to use, it is the fun you have useing them.  Part of the fun is you being able to control them.

Straight-line converge with traverse. From the top of some of these lines all you see is a roll-over or a narrow gap between cliffs. People come from far and wide to ski these lines, and this mountain is one of the only that offer this kind of skiing. To keep the character of our area, and offer skiers something they can't get just anywhere (50+mph without being penalized),  the patrol shut down the traverse, not the chute. (Karp/Stranger discussion)

The Laramie Bowl thread extends my technology concept. Snowboards could be ridden fast in powder in the years prior to really fat skis being produced for the average consumer. Therefore, the issues to come (we are now there) were foreshadowed by the social/safety issues that came up with the powder board.

Is always a good idea to use the most important piece of equipment, your head. 

If there is 3' between the rocks, go straight, but look befor you go.  If you are traversing below some chutes look befor you cross em, don't screw up somebody elses line, and both of your day. 

We can all get along, 'do onto others...... & you know the rest.