I just got a pair of Blizzard SG skis in (for a friend, I SWEAR), and I am wondering what base bevel I should throw on before I hand them off to my friend. He doesn't have a clue what to use, and they are his first pair of speed skis. Would a 1* be fine?
So I heard you like Mudkips...
yea leave em at 1...
Most speed skis should be left at 1... Maybe .75 if you like them to hook-up
Thanks. They are flat right now and I don't want him to kill himself tomorrow when he tries 'em out.
So I heard you like Mudkips...
Flat base is a bad idea for any ski... Super-G, your asking to pull a hans grugger
What GS ski is your friend currently on, and what are the base & edge on the GS skis tuned to? This will determine how big a jump to expect going to the SG ski, and could influence the tune config on the SG skis.
1 degree is a pretty good starting point for a base bevel, and you don't want less for a SG ski. 1.5 degrees is a very comfortable base bevel for an introduction to a SG ski, but the problem is that when you're really racing them, this is too much base bevel.
I would put on 0.5. It's easy to add more, but you can't go the other way without removing base. It's a safe bet he doesn't want it to be less than 0.5.
First pair of speed skis. Likely being skied in the spring in New England, not on a prepped buffed race course. I would consider a 1.5, let him ski them in, get used to the bigger turn shape, and get the bases loaded with hydrocarbon wax. Then, in the fall have them ground with a good all-round structure for the Northeast, and set them up with a 1 degree base bevel. I think that a lot of speed skis that are set up with a 1 degree bevel end up being worked down to something closer to a 1.5 over time anyways...without people realizing it.
Muleski is dead on. Anything less than 1 degree will be too hooky at speed. Best to learn at 1.5.
Karl
Many top tuners suggest 1 degree on the inside edges and outside edges except about 4-6" back from the Tip contact points on both outside edges (Little toe Edges) only at 1.5 Degrees.
If a 1 degree is properly polished and finished it will not be hooky. The danger is in hookiness of the tip on the LT edges
No way are you going to use a .5 on a SG ski you are actually racing on.
Ghost, Free skiing on a Sg ski with a .5 is a totally different environment then having to turn where someone else wants you to!
Well?
Has he tried them yet?
What did he think?
What base bevel did you settle on?
Are they for racing on course or free skiing?
Muleski is dead on. Anything less than 1 degree will be too hooky at speed. Best to learn at 1.5.
Karl
base bevel would not have save Grugger. His ski got bounced up off and then was diverging badly. the only thing that would have avoided this was having no ski on his left foot!
I know but a hookup looks like that too
I know but a hookup looks like that too
That is true!
I'd still like to know what the happy new owner of the SG skis is currently skiing on.
If for example they are skiing &/or racing very well on a recent model FIS GS ski, around 185 cm, tuned at 1.0 or 0.5 base & 3 degrees on edge then a 1 degree base, 3 degree edge should be the right configuration from the start for the SG ski.
If they are currently skiing on a rec racer, then 1.5 base bevel is a better choice.
Muleski has described a good plan, my preference would just be to avoid the base regrind if possible.
My point on the grind isn't so much doing a significant "re-grind". Most speed skis need to have the correct structure ground into the base at some point when they are new, if you're planning on racing and want a fast ski. What comes from the factory varies from nothing to a very generic grind, with most manufacturers. Some, regardless of the issue of the base bevel, like to ski-in the ski, give it them lot of love with waxing and brushing {or hot boxing cycles, and brushing}, with frequent skiing-in going on. It only takes a couple of gentle runs between waxing; no throwing them sideways. Then, you'd put the structure on them, based on where they'll be predominantly skied {East, West, humid, dry, warm, cold, etc.}, and do a bit more waxing and skiing. The ski should keep getting faster through this process, to a point. Then I'd treat them with care, not let a file near them {only stones} and let 'em rip. Others grind them right out of the wrapper. I think you end up in the same place, though a lot of seasoned techs that I know prefer the first approach.
I'd also make sure to pull the sidewalls well, and I'd take a panzer file to the topsheets, along with sandpaper, and round them off a bit as well. You want to go easy on that as too much can actually affect the flex. I think that this has been covered a number of times on this forum.
I haven't seen anything less than a 1 degree base bevel on a SG ski. I bet than 90% of them are set up that way, and that over time some of the bevel gets worked down to about 1.5%. Often in the tips, I've seen. My son has a pair of SG's that were passed to him via the WC pool. So, tuned by a WC tech for a WC skier. Bases look incredible. Very little edge. We measured the base bevel for kicks. Anywhere from 1 degree to about 1.4, and it varied all over the place. I think others have made the point correctly that you don't want them to hook up. You do not want to be overturning, and not releasing your turns in an SG, either. That's key, and it varies based on the skier and the skill.
I've also seen SG skis for younger juniors, like first year J3's, tuned with a 1.5 degree base, presumably to ease with the learning curve. These are kids who clearly have a 1 degree bevel on their tech skis.
Another unfortunate reality is that SG, and DH are different disciplines and require training and coaching to improve. Not a lot of SG training takes place unless you're on snow pretty much full time, in many parts of the country. SG is for my money the best event. Inspect, and take one run. Takes a lot of skill to do well. Sad that we don't schedule more of it in this country. It's hard to build that skill doing one or two a year, with little or no training.
Hope the owner of these Blizzards loves them! Very, very nice ride!! Have fun dialing in the long turn on them, and be careful if and when you're free skiing them. Most recreational skiers do not anticipate anybody making SG sized turns, let alone at SG speeds. A collision would be a disaster. Best to do it on buffed trails that are nearly empty, IMO.
He's on Blizzard GS and SL skis, 185 and 165s respectively. I have .5* base and 3* side bevels set on both SL and GS skis. He loves them next to my 1* SL skis (and so do I, switching over to .5* next year on my SL and GS). I set his SG skis at a 1* base and 3* side.
Sadly he didn't get a chance to run em in yesterday, as we both slept in when we were supposed to go to Okemo. By the time we got there (11am) it was too warm and slushy to be running longboards. He wanted to try a run, but told him it wouldn't make any sense and that it would be dangerous, esp since they are his first pair. Hopefully the Loaf still has good cover this weekend and is hard enough to get a run or two in.
As for prep work, they will be bleeding out of the topsheets after I am done with them... ;)
So I heard you like Mudkips...
You may find this .pdf file interesting.
Scroll down to the second page for the bevels table.
http://www.bristolraceteam.org/downloads/msertl/tuning%2020081204.pdf
World cup is a different horse than regular racers.
Running less than 1* for any junior racer is borderline dodgy.
I would not let the kids I coach do it personally...
World cup is a different horse than regular racers.
Running less than 1* for any junior racer is borderline dodgy.
I agree , but if you are responding to Ghost's post, the verbiage above the chart says for Masters and Juniors add .5* to the chart, which would put SG between 1 and 1.25.
I don't think it is a good idea to start at 1.5 (50% increase over a 1 degree) Because the only way to get back to a one is to stonegrind again. (Race skis have a lot less edge then retail stock, no reason to grind them anymore then necessary) But you can certaibnly increase to a 1.25 or 1.5 or slightly bevel the tips more then the rest of the ski very easily!
Makes more sense to me to start at a true clean polished burr free 1* and if if this is too demanding then increase the bevel.
...
Sad that we don't schedule more of it in this country. It's hard to build that skill doing one or two a year, with little or no training.
...
Rocky Mountain Masters www.rmmskiracing.org, and www.SwissAm.com at Loveland in particular have lots of speed oportunities. 6 SGs and 6 DHs are part of the standard RMM schedule. SwissAm has SG training and DH camps many times through the winter, beginning usually in late December. It is really good training.
I am employed by SwissAm/Loveland and coach speed for them so if giving the link is not appropriate, please delete it. ;o))
Muleski is right on. Speed skis need to be pampered and ground for the conditions they are intended for and then left with that grind as long as possible. Tons of wax and ski sessions repeated as often as possible. To make a ski truly fast you would take it to the hill every day and ski it one or two runs (gentle as Muleski says), then wax it that night. Skiing and waxing will get the base so that it is fast; grinding kills base prep and you have to start over again.
No less than 1 degree is a good rule unless you are always racing on injected snow. If you are on injected snow, you probably don't do make the tuning decisions, your race tech does. ;o) Speed events require subtleness; quick, hard edge changes are not conducive to speed.
In Colorado you usually don't want more than 2 degrees edge bevel, either. For NE or ice conditions, up to 3 degrees would be ok.
Detune the tips, too so that they aren't hooky.
