Paris as point of departure for ski holiday?

Took a week's ski holiday to Cortina a couple of years ago. we flew into the airport in Venice and decided spontaneously that morning to spend the day there before driving the 2 hours north to the mountains. lunch in Venice, dinner at our hotel in Cortina. It was so good, we did the reverse on our return, passing another half day in Venice on the way home. It made the trip so much richer for all of us. Thinking of something similar in France. Maybe stay a couple of days in Paris then onto to the mountains. Any suggestions on areas most easily reached by train etc. that would give us the small town Alpine charm and great skiing that we've enjoyed in Cortina and Lech?

Excellent idea!

The TGV (high-speed train) goes from the Gare de l'Est and gets down to the Alps very quickly. If you want to go to the Vanoise (Three Valleys) or Tarentaise (La Plagne, Les Arcs, Espace Killy) there are stops at Moutiers and Bourg St Maurice. The skiing there is quite fantastic.

As for Cortina/Lech style alpine charm, I'm not so sure. Maybe Courchevel (the lower village), maybe even Tignes les Boisses or La Breviere (again, lower villages; not the poured-concrete monsters further up the hill). I've never been to Serre Chevalier and I'm not sure how it connects to the rail net, but I've heard nothing but good things about skiing and atmosphere.

France is not best known for their trains. Switzerland is.

France is also not best known for charming alpine villages. Austria is.

France is best know for their linked (mega-)resorts! So if that's what you're after, go to France.

Another gateway for the French Alps is Geneva. No train that I know of either. But Geneva is a lot closer to the mountain, and probably shorter transfer time.

Wow! Have you ever been on a TGV? And how can you compare Geneva with Paris?

 The TGV is like "VROOM!, SCREECHHHHHH, THUMPP" and your there....its pretty freaking fast

I've taken the train several times between Paris and Bourg St. Maurice (below Les Arcs)...if you get a TGV, it can be fast until Annecy or Chamberry, but it is slower the last bit...normally about 5 hours in total.  If driving (or taking the bus), Geneva is definitely closer, but you typically have to transfer a few times wihch can make it almost as long as Paris...Geneva is ok, but Paris is a great city, so I like that idea better.

In general, the other posters are correct about France being best known for their mega-resorts, but there are some charming spots as well...sounds like you may enjoy staying at a Chalet...

Fly into Nice and rent a car.  It's much closer to the Alps and there is a lot of nifty stuff to see on the Riviera and in Provence.  Plus it's not crowded this time of year so you won't have to fight the summer crowds.

Unless of course you like trains.  But you don't see a lot on the high speed trains, they really move.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitherandthither 

 

Wow! Have you ever been on a TGV? And how can you compare Geneva with Paris?

The TGV maybe fast, but there's only one line into the Alps so it doesn't reach most of the resorts. Unlike their Swiss counterpart.

And, as pointed out by others, it's actually "too fast" for sightseeing purpose.

Paris maybe a great city, but it's a long way from the mountain. Geneva is bearly an hour from the mountains. It's a matter of how many days one wants to spend skiing and how many days gawking at the city streets (and waiting at bus stations).

That said, I believe there's a night train from Paris to Bourg St. Maurice.

at nyc, I've spent some time on both French & Swiss trains.

The reason that Swiss trains run on time is cause they run so slowly.

You can get the TGV out of Paris to Basel in a couple of hours, then the journey from Basel to Geneve takes forever and a day.

I'm a bit confused by your argument, first you say that French trains aren't as good as Swiss ones, then you say that because French trains are faster they are bad, that slower trains are better. Surely if someone wants to get to a destination, then the faster and more comfortable, the better!

So, back to the OP, if you want small village charm, you may struggle to get it in the resorts that France is best know for, but you can still find it in places like La Rosiere or La Clusaz.

If you want to go from Paris, you could get to La Ros from the TGV station at Bourg.

From Basel or Geneve, you could take a train to Interlaken and then up to Lauterbrunnen, which opens up the Jungfrau area for you (Wengen and Murren are two of the prettiest towns I know)

Also, from Geneve, you can take the train to the Chamonix valley, where you'll still find small resort charm.

I had to fly through Paris on a business trip so I took some days holiday on the way back, spent a day in Paris and took the TGV to the alps. There are two options, the night train (doesn’t stop at all stations though) which leaves at 11pm and takes about 8hrs and the one during the day which is just under 5hrs. They go from various stations in Paris. Go for the night train if you don’t mind roughing it (it isn’t too pleasant) and want to save on 1 day accommodation and gain skiing time www.raileurope.co.uk has everything you need. Bear in mind that the alps is a long long way away from Paris!

I chose Les Arcs purely because it looked the easiest to get to from the station (funicular railway right from the station, free with lift pass) and also easy to buy food before going up to the resort and avoid the awful prices. It is another soul-less french mega resort though.

All in all, I didn’t save much over getting a cheap flight from the UK in the end but got more days skiing in and got to see Paris.

As a Brit living in Switzerland I think the trains are great. On time, clean and picturesque view to enjoy. 

If you flew to Geneva you could go for lunch there or alternatively get on the train (200m from customs exit) and stop at Lausanne or perhaps Montreux (1hr 10 mins) for lunch enjoying fabulous views across Lake Geneva. The train journey is also spectacular running right along the lake.

Skiing wise I'd suggest 3 options:

Verbier or one of the quieter villages in the 4 Valleys (Nendaz or Veysonnaz for example). You would get the train to either Le Chable (for Verbier, changing at Martigny), or to Sion for the other villages. Verbier in the Spring sunshine is a lovely place to be - we were there yesterday watching the Verbier Xtreme.

Val d'anniviers (towns are Zinal, Grimentz or St Luc) - lovely traditional villages but smaller slightly disjointed ski area.

Zermatt - great town, great ski area and the advantage of Italian mountain restaurants over in Cervinia.

All of these are easy by train and the local tourist office may offer combined rail and accommodation deals.

If you go to France Ste Foy has a small village feel with the option of Val d'Isere close by if you want some skiing variety. But the Swiss options are better for fly -> train.

i did the paris - Moûtier (TGV); Moûtier - Courchevel:les trois vallee (bus) trip. the trip is not bad at all. when you book your SNCF ticket, make sure you get TGV to drop you off at Moutier. if you don't you may need to switch trains, which is not too bad, but more hassle. once you are at Moutier, the train station is attached to the bus terminal and the bus trip is quite easy. i don't think i bought the bus tickets in advance. from the bus terminal you can choose to go to many different resorts. If you are going to les trois vallee, this is the way to go. if you are going to the tarentaise, i think you are better off going to bourg st maurice rather than moutier.

don't get scared by it. it's a fun trip and not at all like some people make it sound. the TGV ride is about 5 hours from paris. very smooth ride. the bus ride is about an hour depending on road condition. if you get some time in between the train and the bus, you can check out Moutier as well. 

Courchevel 1850 is actually very nice. Would not recommend other courchevel bases, though. Val Thorens, Meribel or La Tania would be my choices.

Have fun and report back.....   

wow. That's a great response and a lot to sift through. Did have the thought that Geneva was the more usual point of entry, but of course, Paris is Paris. Don't want to prejudge the big French resorts, might love the vastness, etc. just had a dose of a US version of 'soul-less vastness' in our first visit to Vail last week, despite it's shortcomings, have to admit that it was great to have all that acreage available. As far as the train goes, renting a car is always an option too. Where in France can you find something like a small alpine town and great skiing too? A friend mentioned Megeve to me.

Yup. Paris IS Paris. I wouldn't take a car from Paris, though. The TGV is quicker, cheaper and more comfortable. The big French resorts are VAST with fantastic skiing, but, yes, a lot of it is pretty soulless. Thing is, you can find soul in them if you know where to look. Meribel (in the Three Valleys) and Courchevel (also) have some real character. As do the lower villages in Tignes (Wear the Fox Hat has a hotel he likes in one of them and I know a restaurant that has better lamb than any that Bob Peters has ever eaten in Tignes les Brevieres ). If it were me, I'd go to Val d'Isere. But then I'm biased. VdI has some very ugly stuff, but in its heart it is a very, very ancient alpine village and if you stayed in one of the beautiful old chalets (in the hamlets of Joseray or Le Fornet) I think you'd enjoy it a lot. Getting there is about 4.5 hours on the TGV to Bourg St Maurice, then another hour on the bus.

But if you want picturesque, my suggestion of Serre Chevalier stands. Megeve is picturesque too, but that really is a resort best accessed from Geneva -- which, whatever else, is NOT Paris!

Agree with Hither re Megeve and many of his other points...looked very nice when I visited it in the Summer, but didn't look it has as good skiing as the Terrantaise...I am most familar with Les Arcs and while the purpose built villages at 1600, 1800 & 2000 are ugly, there is lots more character to be found when compared to Vail. 

Food is one of my passions other than skiing and I loved being able to have a nice meal at an out of the way family owned restaurant that you could ski to.  Like others have said, look to the lower villages if you want something more "authentic" with some character as most of these were built before the first pair of skis were ever strapped on. 

FWIW, you will find english speakers everywhere, but places like Val (and & think 3 vallees) will be dominated by more non-French speakers when compared to a "real" town like Bourg St. Maurice (where I lived for 9 months last school year).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree30 

 

FWIW, you will find english speakers everywhere, but places like Val (and & think 3 vallees) will be dominated by more non-French speakers when compared to a "real" town like Bourg St. Maurice (where I lived for 9 months last school year).

you probably don't have to worry about your french too much in Val Thorens or Courchevel and definitely in La Tania, but i don't know about being dominated by non-French speakers, though. even if it's bad, a little bit of french helps...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat 

I'm a bit confused by your argument, first you say that French trains aren't as good as Swiss ones, then you say that because French trains are faster they are bad, that slower trains are better. Surely if someone wants to get to a destination, then the faster and more comfortable, the better!

They're each "better" for a different purpose! 

As I said before: "It's a matter of how many days one wants to spend skiing and how many days gawking at the city streets " And the same applies to how much time one wants to spend on the train watching the scenary go by vs "getting there".

I don't find the Swiss train slow. But I didn't take them out of Geneva. I've mostly taken them out of Zurich. More relavent though, the advantage of Swiss train isn't so much being on time, but it goes EVERYWHERE one want to go. While the TGV is fast, but only for some places. And if pookie wants to play tourist, what's the deal with being fast and missing the scenary? 

I play tourist while on ski trips enough to know, it's quite a challenge to drag my skis around trying to take pictures. ;-) With the Swiss system, the railway takes the skis and I pick them up at the airport!

Quote:

Originally Posted by at_nyc 

 

play tourist while on ski trips enough to know, it's quite a challenge to drag my skis around trying to take pictures. ;-) With the Swiss system, the railway takes the skis and I pick them up at the airport!

many train stations in france have baggage checks. you can check your bags for hours or days and pick them up before you board your train or bus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by at_nyc 

 

That said, I believe there's a night train from Paris to Bourg St. Maurice.

That was what we did, many years ago now. Took the overnight (with a sleeper berth) from Paris to Bourg St Maurice and then the bus up to Tignes (Tignes-le-lac IIRC).

Quote:

Originally Posted by at_nyc 

"It's a matter of how many days one wants to spend skiing and how many days gawking at the city streets " ...
With the Swiss system, the railway takes the skis and I pick them up at the airport!

Something to be said for not having to deal with your skis if you have to switch trains (which is a possibility from Paris to Moutiers/Bourg St. Maurice)!!!  Also likely to be a PITA to deal with the skis from the airport to the City, etc, but Paris and the French off piste is worth it IMO. 
 

OTOH, Zurich might be my favorite mid-size city and I have heard good things about the skiing you can access from there...can't go wrong either way. 

Hmm, lot's to sort through, fyi, can speak a little French, was thinking to bring boots and rent skis, in the interest of less lugging (having done it the other way). you said it well : a place in the mountains "built before the first pair of skis was ever put on". I think that's what we're after. Lech, for example, you would not call rustic, but it has that quality. 

Wengen and Chamonix might fit that bill (along with countless small resorts in France/Switzerland/Austria)

pookie

You might find the Thomas Cook railway map of Europe very interesting (I think it's still published). Will give you a very clear idea of where all the lines from Paris go. But even better:

www.seat61.com

That site has become a legend for its invaluable information about going anywhere by train.

I've done London-Paris-Zermatt twice by train. You're looking at about 3 hours by TGV from Paris to Geneva or Lausanne, then one more change at Visp for the cog railway up to the resort. It's a spectacular journey, taking you around the Lake of Geneva.

I've done the journey from the north French coast at Calais to Bourg St Maurice (for Val d'Isere, Les Arcs, Tignes etc) many times. Even easier from Paris.

You can also get down to the southern Alps from Paris via Grenoble, but the problem here is that you have to transfer to buses to get to places like Les Deux Alpes, Alpe d'Huez etc.

Of all the options, Chamonix is probably one of the most accessible from Paris: TGV to Geneva, and then probably a bus (I think only about an hour) (there's a train to Chamonix from Geneva, but it goes from a suburban station and is inconvenient).

Based on your comments about Vail it sounds like you enjoyed having a decent ski area. Megeve is too low and Chamonix is too disconnected.

In Switzerland go to Zermatt. Lots of character, great hotels and restaurants. Some of the best mountain restaurants in the Alps (Zum See and Chez Vrony). Sensational views of the Matterhorn. Easily accessible by train from Geneva/Lausanne.

In France go to Val D'Isere. Probably the best ski area in the world, attractive town with good hotels and restaurants. If you want more rustic and quieter check out Le Fornet but I'd stay in Val d'Isere itself.

The 3 Valleys is an option. Courchevel 1850 for lots of fur coats and Russians,  St Martin De Belleville for peace and quiet. 

Like the sound of the trip to Zermatt  and if Val d'Isere is also accessible, I guess those are 2 pretty fair options by train from Paris. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pookie 

 

Like the sound of the trip to Zermatt  and if Val d'Isere is also accessible, I guess those are 2 pretty fair options by train from Paris. Thanks.

Train line from Paris ends in Bourg St. Maurice from where you can catch a bus or taxi to Val (about 30-60 minutes)

if I can re-frame the question in light of the suggestions: using Paris as point of departure for ski holiday, how would you compare Zermat and Val D'Isere as destination in terms of 1. the skiing 2. the feel of the place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pookie 

 

if I can re-frame the question in light of the suggestions: using Paris as point of departure for ski holiday, how would you compare Zermat and Val D'Isere as destination in terms of 1. the skiing 2. the feel of the place.

I haven't skied Zermatt, but have heard good things and imagine that you would be very happy with either as long as the snow was right the week you went. 

I think Val has a nice feel in terms of being more upscale (less rustic) than some of the lower French Villages while not being too ultra modern like some of the higher purpose build places or too Disneyesque (like some describe the recently build 1950 Village at Les Arcs which is modern attempt at an older Alpine style village).  While Val has a local school and small year round population, it is closer to a ski village rather than a town that would exist but for skiing.  It sort of stretches along the main road between the mountains, so it is longer than it is wide (as opposed to something like Chamonix which is more square shaped with a bigger year round population).

The food in the French Alps is closer to Swiss than other parts of France, so you will certainly be able to get good fondue either place, but Val will give you the option of more traditional French fare (while Zermatt will likely offer more Swiss options).  From Zermatt, you can ski into Italy (Cervinia/Valtournenche), condtions permitting, while from Val you have to drive a bit down the road to La Rosiere to be able to do this. 

Not exactly sure when you were planning on going, but if it is a week that is not typically busy (Jan, late March or April), then you could give some thought about booking air to Paris in advance and then wait as long as you feel comfortable in booking train and ski lodging to see if one area looks like it will have better snow.  I wouldn't recommend this during busy times like school holidays (France can get really busy during French and British school holidays, Zermatt MAY be a better choice during this timeframe) or if you really want to stay at a more popular chalet/hotel. 

The first day I skied Espace Killy (starting and ending on the Tignes side with Val in the early afternoon), I thought I was in skiing heaven, but in stormy conditions, visibility at the higher elevations can be nil (most of it is above treeline), while the lower elevations may or may not have decent snow.  I think Zermatt may be similar in this respect.   

For more info and specific lodging/dining options, I would consider going to Snowheads,com as there are a lot of British who have skied extensively at both resorts.

Edited by MEfree30 - 4/3/2009 at 03:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pookie 

 

if I can re-frame the question in light of the suggestions: using Paris as point of departure for ski holiday, how would you compare Zermat and Val D'Isere as destination in terms of 1. the skiing 2. the feel of the place.

I've probably done about 8 trips to Val d'Isere, including a month spent there. And about 10 trips to Zermatt.

For me, Zermatt has the edge. The scenery and town are both spectacular. The ride up to the highest lift in Europe - the Klein Matterhorn - is a big experience.

In terms of expert ski terrain, Val d'Isere (in combination with Tignes) is superior, but the mountains are scenically slightly less dramatic.

You definitely need to visit both!

I think that the previous two posts are helpful and appropriate.

The only thing I'd slightly dispute is the question of snow conditions. I've been in Val at all times of the year, including some pretty warm ones and during "ski droughts". There has ALWAYS been some lovely snow to ski on piste -- maybe not as much of it as you would like with some trails closed and some unpleasant -- but always, by U.S. standards, huge amounts and negligible lift lines. I think that Val d'Isere, if you're not desperate for off-piste powder, is about as snow sure as it gets. Don't hold off booking for that reason.

I'm biased and love Val d'Isere for the skiing (guided, lift-served off-piste). I love the atmosphere of the town -- it's a skier's town. Yes, there are ugly buildings (but not so many of them and the core of the town is a very, very old French mountain village that was unbelievably remote; every winter the village would be cut off for months -- as you can understand if you look into the gorge as you drive up the valley and think what it would have been like before the road and the tunnels were built). There are also loud falling-over-drunk Brits (and Scandies -- plenty of those) and if-you've-got-it-flaunt-it-baby-flaunt-it Richie Richs (but not so many as most places in Switzerland -- or, I think, Lech or Cortina). But the main core is skiers -- simply people who love the mountains and sliding over the snow and cherish every turn whether they ski a week a year or do it every day from November to May (there are even some who then go to Thredbo or NZ for the other half!). If you have any specific queries, just ask.

No knock on Zermatt. I'm the only person I know who didn't love it when I went -- and that was a long, long, long, long time ago.

The one serious issue that you should think about if you're going from Paris and travelling by train is travel time. For VdI, the fast train bombs along to Lyon, then becomes a lot slower until it gets to Bourg. Then you have an hour on the bus going up the hill (I once had a driver who did it in 45 -- but I don't want to travel with him again!) For Zermatt, you'll have to take the train to Geneva and then you'll have a fairly long further journey, I believe (although I remember it being extremely beautiful).