Intuition liners - overlap or tongue style better for huge calves?

I'd like to put Intuition (or some other brand of thermofit liner) into my next custom ski boots. There seems to be two main styles, a double overlap and tongue style liners. In your experience or opinion, would one style tend to fit skiers with huge calves better than the other?

I've never tried an overlap style liner and I'm not sure how it would fit. If the boot fitter doesn't stock both types to try on or doesn't have an opinion which way should I be leaning? I'm a male, alpine skier with 18" circumference calves. Even after my boot fitter cuts the shell cuff down and/or flares it, my calves are still likely to be more than 12" around at the top of the shell. This will probably be for a size 27, Atomic B110 boot (unless the shop finds something that fits my feet even better).

Whistlerbnd, I got the double overlap for my Kryptons for just the opposite reason. I have chicken shins and small calves. The overlap version allows me to cinch the liner around my skinny shins in a way I could not do with the conventional tongue version. Truly, I wonder if that extra thickness created by the overlap would make it difficult for you to buckle the top buckle given all the liner material there. And if your large lower leg impairs the overlap, they may not fit or feel quite right. All specualtion. Hope it helps.

David 

I just finished cooking and molding the Luxury Liner (tongue version) for my Krypton Pro's (had the ID-Gold).  If it doesn't rain tonight, I'll try them out tomorrow.

The Luxury comes in high, medium and low volume.  I have small calves and thin feet, so I bought the high volume version.

The liners fit in the boots great.  I think the high volume liner fills up the shell better than the ID Gold did.  I'm trying these without footbeds; we'll see how that goes. 

I suspect my boots will be a bit softer with the tongue; but I do have booster straps on the boots and am thinking those should compensate for the softer liner.  I think the over laps will feel stiffer than the luxury liners.  We'll see (it's starting to drizzle out now; fingers crossed for snow at the end of this).

I'd look at the tongue liner in low volume.  if you can't find them in a store, you could probably buy them directly from intuition.  I wouldn't be surprised if you could buy them, try them on and return them if they don't fit.  Of course; once they're molded, you'd be stuck with them....

I have two pair of ski boots. One with the Intuition Wrap that I found a little rough on the front of my shins. When I got new liners for my other boots I chose the tongue model. I found the tongue to be a softer material and there are no problems with my shins now. In my boots the Intuition tongue model had dimensions similar to my original equipment liners. That said, I think the original Intuition wrap model might work better for you. I don't think the wrap needs to overlap much to work well. I think you definitely need to try it on and at that point I believe you will see if it is any help for your situation.

It also depends on how wide's the opening at the top of the cuff. With my Salomon X-Wave 10 I had to modify the buckles to get the cuff to close-up enough(and I have BIG calves). With my old Nordica Grand Prix there was no problem. This is with the overlap.

I had the overlap-style in my Kryps (ID Silver).  Luckily, I have skinny biker legs.  I wouldn't recommend them for people with big calves, because that was one of the problem areas for me.

They were also quite a bit taller than anything else I've ever owned. 

I think it really comes down to the shell you're putting the liners into.  Flexons/Kryptons can take either the overlap or tongue versions just fine.  You may run into problems with the overlap liners in 2-piece traditional overlap shell designs.  These problems include:

1. In most 2-piece shells the stock tongued liner is part of the shell itself.  By that I mean that the tongue has a heavy plastic outer layer that works in conjunction with the rest of the shell to provide smooth forward flex and firmness.  The overlap liners don't really do well with these types of designs since they don't have the degree of support in front like a tongue liner has.
2. Fitting an overlap liner into a 2-piece overlap shell can be problematic depending on how your foot/leg interface with the shell.  If the liner's overlap amount is high (lot's of liner material going around to the sides of your leg) then you're most likely going to have problems using it with a 2-piece shell.

My personal experience recommendation is to stay away from overlap liners with 2-piece shells.  Go with a tongue liner.  With 3-piece shells it's user preference (I generally prefer an overlap, but am currently skiing ZipFit tongue liners in my Flexons).

My calves are 14.5" at the top of the shell, and I use the Intuition overlap liner in size 27 Lange shells.  THe liners work beautifully, and I no longer suffer from sore shins (Lange Bang).  I use the thinner, plug boot liners, rather than the full thickness regular power wrap liners.  I haven't noticed any significant difference in flex, but if it's softer, it's more than compensated for by the better fit and increased sensitivity and responsiveness delivered by the liner.  My opinion is that the tongue liner will cause the fit to be too tight for someone with large calves, but I've never tried them so take my comment with a grain of salt. 

exracer - I'm surprised you feel that a tongue liner would result in less available room in front than an overlap liner.  I disagree and that's based on my own measurements of overlap liners versus tongued liners.  The only thing I can come up with is that when you were fitted in your liners you pressed very hard into the front while the foam was setting up and ended up with a much thinner foam section where the tongue would be.  If that's the case then OK, but I generally recommend that you DON'T press forward when fitting a thermoflex-type liner for at least the first 10 minutes to avoid pre-compressing the foam. 

W,

As said more than several times by the guys previous..the older wrap-style(on their Plug model) has its good points.

I've simply re-heated the top portion of the liner...low heat with hair dryer...and rolled it back a bit...all along where it fits a little too tight for comfort...does the trick in ~15min.  I have, in addition to larger calf, rather thin lower legs/ankle-achilles leading into a med-small heel...which needs a little extra thickness/density from a liner...and the older fashioned wrap-style cuff of the  Plug fills that little gap in perfectly!...while adding just a little stiffness to the fflex...which is fine(in my Garmont Endorphins).

$.01

STeveD

I appreciate so many people relating their experiences with these liners. There doesn't seem to be much consensus though which I suppose just goes to show how different everyone's feet/legs are. Either that or preferences for comfort vs. performance fits.

I'm heartened to get some feedback from skiers with large calves that like their fit.. but I guess I will have to find a shop that stocks both & try them on firsthand. Haven't been able to find a local shop that has both yet. Intuitions offices are near me, if I can ever reach them. Usually takes a few weeks to get an email reply & have never been able to reach them by phone. Just hoping that I can get the comfortable fit that others have been able to!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noodler 

 

exracer - I'm surprised you feel that a tongue liner would result in less available room in front than an overlap liner.  I disagree and that's based on my own measurements of overlap liners versus tongued liners. 

I was just going by memory of the tongues in liners in old boots of mine.  But, then again, I've been using Intuition liners for so long that my recollection may not be accurate.  I haven't done any measurements of mine versus a tongue liner, for comparison. 

The one difference that is obvious, however, is that even though the overlap might indeed be thicker than a tongue, it has a deep impression formed to my tibia so that the pressure is perfectly distributed across and around my shin.  It will be thick where it needs to be, and will thin itself out where it needs to.  With tongue liners in the past, I was constantly getting bruised shins (in some cases rubbed raw)... a problem that was completely solved by switching to Intuition liners.

The real question is how does the Intuition tongue liner (Luxury or Freeride model) compare to the standard overlap design.  You can get the Luxury liner in low, medium, or high volume foam.  I'm wondering what the tongue is like on these.  I'm assuming that they're just like the Daleboot branded Intuition liner that I've recently seen.  I was really impressed with this liner and plan on picking up a tongued thermoflex-type liner very soon.  I'm hoping that it will be a liner that bridges the gap between my ZipFit tongue liners and my overlap Thermoflex liners.  At the moment I'm unable to use an overlap style Thermoflex liner due to my leg injury, but I really miss the warmth and additional comfort of Thermoflex versus the ZipFits some days.

I have problems with the stock liner cutting into my calf too much & causing my foot to cramp. Was thinking of wrapping some moleskin (very thin) around my calf before molding the Intuition liner to avoid too tight of a fit around my calf. Has anyone tried this or think that it might lead to shin bang?

Sounds to me you are fixing a problem that has yet to appear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whistlerbnd 

 

I have problems with the stock liner cutting into my calf too much & causing my foot to cramp. Was thinking of wrapping some moleskin (very thin) around my calf before molding the Intuition liner to avoid too tight of a fit around my calf. Has anyone tried this or think that it might lead to shin bang?

You shouldn't have to do that.  The beauty of the liner is that the cuff will mold itself to your calve and shin, unlike a stock liner and tongue.
 

I just measured the thickness of the front of my stock Lange liner versus my overlap Intuition liner, and the Intuition is definitely thinner (less liner between the shell and shin) than the stock liner (I don't know how the tongue Intuition liner compares, though).  With the Intuition overlap liner, you have two layers wrapped across the front of the shin.  With the stock liner, you have a thick tongue plus the cuff on both sides that overlaps the tongue between the tongue and shell, making it thicker than the overlap Intuition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whistlerbnd 

 

I have problems with the stock liner

How tall are you?    Do you also have problems with too much forward lean once the boot is buckled?

My .02

Calves = 16"s. @ 5'10" 170 lbs.

The wrap will certainly form around your calves without the need to do anthing special. I think that many people try to out-think the liners/molding process, end up doing too much and they turn out to be too high volume.

Even though the wrap may seem like double material in the front, which would cause too tight a fit, in actuality it can compress as much as needed, so they could be two super thin layers if they have to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by comprex 

 

How tall are you?    Do you also have problems with too much forward lean once the boot is buckled?

5' 9" (1.76m) male. No problems with excessive forward lean on a stock boot, but my last boot fitter did have pretty aggressive heal lifts (to get my calves out of the boot) that did pitch me uncomfortably forward.

The main problem seems to be that my calf is in the boot & the cuff places excessive pressure against the middle of the calf (18" at the top of the shell cuff). I'm trying to get the cuff on my new ski boots cut down & flared back to take most of the pressure off the calf. Since the newer Intuitions are taller than they used to be, most of my calf will be inside the liner. So just trying to gage if the overlap style liners might also put too much pressure on calf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whistlerbnd 

 

5' 9" (1.76m) male. No problems with excessive forward lean on a stock boot, but my last boot fitter did have pretty aggressive heal lifts (to get my calves out of the boot) that did pitch me uncomfortably forward.

 

Hmmm. Not what I would have expected. Sensation of being in high heels, yes, pitched forward no.

Yes, I understood that.

As the other posters have said, this is not a problem. The height of the Intuitions above the boot cuff doesn't affect anything. During the moulding process you will be generally be pulling the liners UP and putting tension on them to get the surplus material out of the boot, so -all- will get taller.

I would pick the liner style based on ease of entry at the instep.

I think that you might have been on to something there comprex. I was able to try both liners at Intuition today and found that both styles (overlap & tongue) would be workable. But the Luxury liner (tongue style) was a superior fit for my large, low calves. The Power wrap barely had any overlap before molding and because it was being "held open" by my big calves it bulged slightly where the overlaps met at my instep. I think that it would have been fine after molding, but since the tongued liner fit me better to start with, especially at the instep, that's what I went with. It might be the other way around for someone with different feet. But those with large, low calves should try on the new tongue style liner as it may be the best fit for them.

BTW, the Intuition folks were great & made sure that I left with a perfect fit.

Kudos to Intuition.  They make a great product.  Glad you found something that works with those 'stove pipes' of yours

based on the miriad of opinions here it is a case of what works for one may not for the other

what we use here for big calves is the intuition universal liner, it is lower cut and thiner than the alpine or most of their other liners, it is an overlap rather than a tongue and having tryed to gain coverage with a tongue that is not wide enough for a large calf i would always suggest that overlap is the way to go, the key is getting teh shell as close as possible before you start, if the shell can close without too much difficulty then the liner should not be too much of an issue

good luck