pivot slip

#61

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1/31/09 at 9:23am

Talyn
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Wow, this new thing is fancy..

Anyways.
Maybe that should be the first thing asked in instruction, is for the students to set a goal. Especially in 1 on 1 instruction.
Having a goal helps me get better though the day skiing. I keep trying untill i'm satisifed with it.

Poo, spell check doesn't work anymore cause its a pop up window.

#62

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2/2/09 at 8:24am

WVSkier
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I have been away for a while and am very happy to be back. This is a really important thread - especially for instructors going for exams.

In the east, pivot slips are in virtually every level 2 exam and above. In my coaching of instructors going for exams I always ask them to think about why a certain task will be in an exam, specifically what it shows and what the examiner will be looking for.

I won't rehash it here but this thread will be required reading for any instructor I coach.

Bob

#63

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2/2/09 at 8:50am

Talyn
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Quote:

Originally Posted by WVSkier

I have been away for a while and am very happy to be back. This is a really important thread - especially for instructors going for exams.

In the east, pivot slips are in virtually every level 2 exam and above. In my coaching of instructors going for exams I always ask them to think about why a certain task will be in an exam, specifically what it shows and what the examiner will be looking for.

I won't rehash it here but this thread will be required reading for any instructor I coach.

Bob

I really want my knee to get better so I can go try them!
I cannot afford to screw it up by skiing to early with my work.

Just what we need, is bob1 and bob2.
WVSkier, i dub the Bob2

Barnes is Bob1.

Hahaha.
I do this to my truck club members, cause I have 3 or 4 Tims, and a few other guys, johns. yada yada.
It works too.

#64

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2/2/09 at 9:12am

Bob Barnes
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Quote:

Just what we need, is bob1 and bob2.
WVSkier, i dub the Bob2

Barnes is Bob1.

Hahaha.

I'm not sure that's gonna work, Talyn....

Bob/WVSkier--good to see you back. I'm sure that Talyn will soon see why there is no "#2"!

As many long-time EpicSki members know, there is another Bob Barnes in Colorado. He's the Ski School Director at Winter Park (I work at Keystone). We are both heavily involved in PSIA and instructor training. We'd known about each other for years before we met in person. When we met, "other" Bob said "all right, then, I wanna be Bob Barnes 1." "Fine," I said. "I'm Bob Barnes A."

Now they just call us "Chuck" (me--Charles is my middle name) and "Jimmy" (James).

Best regards,

Bob (A!)

EPICSKI ACADEMY — Discover the Expert in You!
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#65

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2/2/09 at 9:58am

Talyn
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Barnes

Quote:

Just what we need, is bob1 and bob2.
WVSkier, i dub the Bob2

Barnes is Bob1.

Hahaha.

I'm not sure that's gonna work, Talyn....

Bob/WVSkier--good to see you back. I'm sure that Talyn will soon see why there is no "#2"!

As many long-time EpicSki members know, there is another Bob Barnes in Colorado. He's the Ski School Director at Winter Park (I work at Keystone). We are both heavily involved in PSIA and instructor training. We'd known about each other for years before we met in person. When we met, "other" Bob said "all right, then, I wanna be Bob Barnes 1." "Fine," I said. "I'm Bob Barnes A."

Now they just call us "Chuck" (me--Charles is my middle name) and "Jimmy" (James).

Best regards,

Bob (A!)

That was a great laugh bob!!!!!

I was just pullin his leg.
I'm sure when I call Bob, the correct one will answer. =)

Bob was already making fun of me for shearing sheep, so I gotta tug on him a little. =D

#66

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2/2/09 at 11:37am

WVSkier
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I'll just go by "Bob-the other one"

Bob Barnes, when's the next edition of the book coming out? I've loaned out mine to so many people it's falling apart. I think your book has helped more people pass Level 2 and 3 at my area than almost anything else. I can probably sell 50 of the new one for you...

By the way, I've gotten more milage out of "right tip right, to go right; left tip left, to go left" than you will ever know. You should copyright it!

Edited by WVSkier - Mon, 02 Feb 09 19:41:33 GMT

#67

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2/2/09 at 2:45pm

sharpedges
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Quote:

Originally Posted by oisin

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharpedges

That's certainly an awkward position to be in. But part of being a professional is acting on these observations even if it singes a colleague's ego a bit. .....

I don't know. I was always taught that faulting a fellow instructor to a student was an absolute no no. Acting diplomatically to remedy a fault acquired from previous instruction without impugning another professional certainly adds to the challenge.
......

Yikes! Mea Culpa.

The perils of online communication. Sorry not to see this sooner, but there was the epic site update (and a snow-filled weekend) that got in the way.

I meant that a professional should provide feedback to a colleague or to an unreceptive colleague's supervisors. I suggested recertification as a mechanism to force feedback, given the reality that colleagues and SSD/SAM don't always have quality, safe instruction as a top priority, essentially asking PSIA to step up to the plate since SAM doesn't. This is relatively common among professions. For example, few law firms desire to lose their lawyers several days a year for continuing education because of its effect on this year's bottom line. But legal practictioners collectively realize the long-term consequences of staleness and through the ABA have mandated continuing legal education as a condition to practice law. It's to SAM's long-term benefit to have up-to-date instruction both from a skier retention ($$$) perspective and from the lower insurance and law suit rate ($$) perspective.

It's rarely the case that putting down another instructor in front of a student does any good. That student paid $$$ to get the earlier instruction and doesn't need to hear negative criticism of what hard-earned dollars bought.

With students, you can always watch a few turns, listen to their motivations, and then suggest a "technique enhancement suited to your skiing, goals, and build." Keep it positive if possible, and neutrally objective if not.

Of course, if a student advances greatly under your tutelage , he or she may come to realize the previous instructor's shortcomings. In that case, you should tactfully concur and change the discussion as soon as courtesy allows.

Please accept my apologies for the confusion I caused.

finesse + balance + a big grin = skiing

"The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so."
William Alanson White

#68

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2/2/09 at 4:05pm

Talyn
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I dont think you caused any sharpedges.

Thanks for clarifiying however. =)

Keep your stick on the ice.

#69

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2/3/09 at 6:24am

oisin
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Quote:

Originally Posted by sharpedges

Quote:

Originally Posted by oisin

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharpedges

That's certainly an awkward position to be in. But part of being a professional is acting on these observations even if it singes a colleague's ego a bit. .....

I don't know. I was always taught that faulting a fellow instructor to a student was an absolute no no. Acting diplomatically to remedy a fault acquired from previous instruction without impugning another professional certainly adds to the challenge.
......

Yikes! Mea Culpa.

The perils of online communication. Sorry not to see this sooner, but there was the epic site update (and a snow-filled weekend) that got in the way.

I meant that a professional should provide feedback to a colleague or to an unreceptive colleague's supervisors. I suggested recertification as a mechanism to force feedback, given the reality that colleagues and SSD/SAM don't always have quality, safe instruction as a top priority, essentially asking PSIA to step up to the plate since SAM doesn't. This is relatively common among professions. For example, few law firms desire to lose their lawyers several days a year for continuing education because of its effect on this year's bottom line. But legal practictioners collectively realize the long-term consequences of staleness and through the ABA have mandated continuing legal education as a condition to practice law. It's to SAM's long-term benefit to have up-to-date instruction both from a skier retention ($$$) perspective and from the lower insurance and law suit rate ($$) perspective.

It's rarely the case that putting down another instructor in front of a student does any good. That student paid $$$ to get the earlier instruction and doesn't need to hear negative criticism of what hard-earned dollars bought.

With students, you can always watch a few turns, listen to their motivations, and then suggest a "technique enhancement suited to your skiing, goals, and build." Keep it positive if possible, and neutrally objective if not.

Of course, if a student advances greatly under your tutelage , he or she may come to realize the previous instructor's shortcomings. In that case, you should tactfully concur and change the discussion as soon as courtesy allows.

Please accept my apologies for the confusion I caused.

Sharpedge

No real confusion here. I just thought some clarification was in order. Your suggestions are good advice. Of course we attempted to (diplomatically) correct this trainer's mistaken notion of ski technique and mechanics but it is difficult to alter the convictions of someone who is a senior instructor, a trainer, fully certified (years ago) and fully supported by the ski school management. Besides the matter of professional courtesy the fellow is a nice guy and I was reluctant to alienate him. In fact a number of similarly dated and/or clueless instructors were prominent in that school. I think that, after I stopped teaching there, that ski school acquired a competent ski school director who set about changing things. I've heard that the situation today is much improved although I tend to take that sort of information with a grain of salt. The old aphorism that ,while revolutions occur from the bottom up, reform takes place from the top down, seems to hold true. Top, after all is higher up than the SSD though. I think that it becomes very difficult to change people who may have been teaching for quite a while and whose approach has been reinforced in various ways. I do think that the best teachers are those who are committed to or infatuated with continuous learning. Ski instruction remains pretty spotty I think at most places. Conversations with examiners and DCLs tends to confirm this. I don't think it will change anytime soon without real commitment from the ski industry.

#70

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11/20/09 at 4:28am

Trekchick
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Barnes

Here's an animation of Pivot Slips that I put together after Weems stated something to the effect that he'd rather listen to Neil Diamond than do Pivot Slips. I think you can torture yourself with both at the same time!

"Pivot Slips" are a useful and versatile exercise on skis that develops several important skills and sensations. First and most obvious, perhaps, is the rotation of the legs (femurs) in the hip sockets that is critically important in virtually all skiing maneuvers, from pure-carved arcs to hockey stops. Without this skill, skiers invariably rely on upper body exertions ("rotation" or "counter-rotation") and/or powerful blocking pole plants whenever they need to twist their skis. Upper body movements can twist or pivot skis only, causing skidding, and cannot be used to guide the skis or shape turns precisely. Without femur rotation (as with a fused hip), skiing as we know it is not possible at all. Beyond the obvious rotary effects, femur rotation is involved in edging movements as well.

Perhaps even more importantly, Pivot Slips help develop the feel for the edge release that marks the transition in offensive turns--again, whether pure-carved or brushed and guided. Such turns begin (and, if linked, end) in what I call "neutral," which is an attitude that is well-defined by Pivot Slips. The entire maneuver takes place in "neutral," on slipping skis with edges released. There should be no edge set, and no attempt to slow the slip at any point in the maneuver.

It's not the easiest of exercises, by any means. It is commonly used as one of several skill and discipline tasks for Full Certified instructor exams. Many people who "think" they're doing Pivot Slips are not!

Pivot Slips highlight the "release and guide the tips downhill, into the turn" initiation of modern, offensive turns. Perhaps the most common error when attempting them is the tendency to set the edge of the downhill ski, slowing or even stopping the slip, and then "pushing off" from the platform of that ski--pushing and twisting the uphill ski tail uphill, rather than guiding the downhill tip down the hill.

Fore-aft balance is critical in Pivot Slips. If it isn't just right, the skis will not slip directly down the fall line, and the pivot point will not fall directly under the foot, as in the animation above. It's a great way, therefore, to find a modern, neutral stance.

It's also effective at finding your optimal "ready" athletic stance for skiing--both vertically and stance-width-wise. Too narrow a stance compromises the power of the leg rotation involved (a locked-together stance makes it impossible). Too wide a stance, while powerful, creates problems with fore-aft balance, as one foot will be weighted forward and the other aft. A stance either too tall (femurs extended) or too short (femurs flexed) reduces the range of rotation available in the hip sockets.

Finally, while it hardly looks like an "edging drill," Pivot Slips develop the highly-refined sense of subtle edge control involved in the edge release and transition between turns. Learning to let go ("release") and maintain balance on released edges is critical in modern turns.

That should get you started! I have posted video clips and video animations of Pivot Slips here previously, but the server that hosted them is no longer in operation, so I'll need to find them and link to them again, when I can find the time.

Best regards,
Bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmckimson

I hate pivot slips but still work on them as it build a great skill base. Maybe if I attend one of Bob's clinics I'll learn to like them someday!

Mike

I was getting some ideas for excercises to get me ready for ski season and thought about pivot slips, so I dug up this thread.
I have one question for you mmckimson......will I EVER like pivot slips?

Bob, I need to work on this more

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#71

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11/20/09 at 7:16am

tetonpwdrjunkie
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I love pivot slips... now that I can do them well. I think they are a great drill for everything Bob said. I also think their great for bump skiing. Most of my students can't do them and hate them. I have often seen my students make some very sweet short round turns when attempting pivot slips. Sometimes the best turns of the day! This is because they won't release their edges enough to move straight down the fall line but are still getting some good rotary and guiding of the skis. If I use pivot slips in a lesson, I tend to spend a short time on them several times through the day with lots of skiing and applied skills in between to make them more palatable. This has been a lot more effective for me than really pressing this drill. By the end of the day there is usually a marked improvement. It's kind of funny to describe and demo a pivot slip and then see nice turns from the students, who are thrilled to have made such nice turns, and have to patiently explain that the point of this drill is not about round turns right now.

#72

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11/20/09 at 7:51am

Trekchick
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Funny, when I was trying to learn bumps Cgeib forced me to do pivot slips. Then he laughed at me.....he calls himself my friend.....

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#73

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11/20/09 at 10:06am

cgeib
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I think that your memory might be a tad bit skewed there, Trek!

This part does make me laugh though:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trekchick

...when I was trying to learn bumps...

So, ya got them all figured out now, eh

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#74

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11/20/09 at 11:18am

Bob Barnes
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Reminds me of an old cartoon I saw years ago--a woman introduces her friend to the ski instructor for her friend's private lesson. "Will you be joining us, or are you taking a separate lesson?" asks the instructor. "Oh, no," she says, proudly, "I learned last year!"

Regarding Pivot Slips, I'm still surprised as I read through a few current threads today (example: TGIF) at the misconceptions surrounding this critically effective drill.

Pivot Slips, ironically, are not at all about pivoting or skidding! They are about releasing the edge to start a turn, precisely so that you do not have to push off and twist the tails into a skid. They are about learning to guide the skis precisely with the legs when necessary, so you do not have to huck them around with your upper body into a skid. They are about finding the balance point fore-and-aft, the highly refined edging skill and balance needed to release smoothly and at the right time, and the optimal leg separation, leg movements, and upper body discipline needed to prevent skidded turn entries (when desired).

Yes, of course, the same refined skills also enable you to pivot the skis powerfully but precisely with the legs (not the upper body) when needed--as in bumps (not always), short-swing turns, and hockey stops. But that is far from the real point, or the real purpose, of practicing Pivot Slips. The very best drill I know for learning to eliminate the tail-pushing, twisted, "rotary pushoff" skidded turn initiation and develop the skills and movement patterns of modern, offensive, gliding, carved turns...is the Pivot Slip. Pivot Slips have more in common with pure Railroad Track carved arcs (which, of course, must always involve an edge release in the transition) than they have with skidded, pivoted turn entries.

In the "TGIF" ("Tips Go In First") thread I linked to above, Pivot Slips are an ideal way to develop the "edge release, guide the tips into the turn" initiation (vs. edge SET & push the tails out initiation)--which is the subject of the thread. Again, whether you're looking for a "smeared" brushed, steered/shaped turn, or linked, pure-carved arcs, the only way to begin them is to release the edges and NOT twist the tails out--either guiding the tips in, or holding the skis on their lines, both of which involve the refined leg steering skills inherent in Pivot Slips.

Sadly, some appear incapable of ever getting it. And others just refuse. Alas.....

Best regards,
Bob

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Arapahoe Basin * Stowe * Aspen * Big Sky

#75

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11/20/09 at 11:37am

BushwackerinPA
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Bob would agree that the edge release in the Pivot Slip comes from your COM moving over the skis?

I think being able to move your COM over your skis no matter the steepness or the gnarliness is what the difference is between a good ski on a groomered black trail who cant ski offtrail well, to someone who can almost always link turns anywhere on the mountain..

"its not that you cant ski the bumps, its that you cant ski and the bumps prove it"

pbfootnit.blogspot.com/ <<< the start of something good!

#76

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11/20/09 at 11:48am

Bob Barnes
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Good point, BWPA--yes, I would agree. In Rocky Mountain, for our Examiner selection, we have occasionally asked candidates to do pivot slips on steep, crud-covered mogul runs. Not easy (and sometimes entertaining!), but it's impressive to see the skills exhibited when a great skier attempts that!

Best regards,
Bob

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Arapahoe Basin * Stowe * Aspen * Big Sky

#77

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11/20/09 at 11:52am

Trekchick
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Quote:

Originally Posted by cgeib

I think that your memory might be a tad bit skewed there, Trek!

This part does make me laugh though:

So, ya got them all figured out now, eh

In the words of my fellow michiganders, da yoopers......ya, shur, you betcha!

I figure dat I got a lot more gosh darn work ta do, eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Barnes

Reminds me of an old cartoon I saw years ago--a woman introduces her friend to the ski instructor for her friend's private lesson. "Will you be joining us, or are you taking a separate lesson?" asks the instructor. "Oh, no," she says, proudly, "I learned last year!"

Regarding Pivot Slips, I'm still surprised as I read through a few current threads today (example: TGIF) at the misconceptions surrounding this critically effective drill.

Pivot Slips, ironically, are not at all about pivoting or skidding! They are about releasing the edge to start a turn, precisely so that you do not have to push off and twist the tails into a skid. They are about learning to guide the skis precisely with the legs when necessary, so you do not have to huck them around with your upper body into a skid. They are about finding the balance point fore-and-aft, the highly refined edging skill and balance needed to release smoothly and at the right time, and the optimal leg separation, leg movements, and upper body discipline needed to prevent skidded turn entries (when desired).

Yes, of course, the same refined skills also enable you to pivot the skis powerfully but precisely with the legs (not the upper body) when needed--as in bumps (not always), short-swing turns, and hockey stops. But that is far from the real point, or the real purpose, of practicing Pivot Slips. The very best drill I know for learning to eliminate the tail-pushing, twisted, "rotary pushoff" skidded turn initiation and develop the skills and movement patterns of modern, offensive, gliding, carved turns...is the Pivot Slip. Pivot Slips have more in common with pure Railroad Track carved arcs (which, of course, must always involve an edge release in the transition) than they have with skidded, pivoted turn entries.

In the "TGIF" ("Tips Go In First") thread I linked to above, Pivot Slips are an ideal way to develop the "edge release, guide the tips into the turn" initiation (vs. edge SET & push the tails out initiation)--which is the subject of the thread. Again, whether you're looking for a "smeared" brushed, steered/shaped turn, or linked, pure-carved arcs, the only way to begin them is to release the edges and NOT twist the tails out--either guiding the tips in, or holding the skis on their lines, both of which involve the refined leg steering skills inherent in Pivot Slips.

Sadly, some appear incapable of ever getting it. And others just refuse. Alas.....

Best regards,
Bob

Wow, thanks Bob!
As I stated in my bump post this morning, I was trying to do some stuff at home to get geared up for ski season, and ESA in particular.
I decided to do some dry land skiing stuff that Robin taught us so I did a few minutes of dry land pivot slips on two pieces of paper on my carpeted floor. Holy Moses!

Shall I explain what a dry land pivot slip is in my mind?

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#78

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11/20/09 at 12:00pm

HeluvaSkier
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Trekchick

...so I did a few minutes of dry land pivot slips on two pieces of paper on my carpeted floor. Holy Moses!

You touched something metal or an outlet soon after doing those didn't you?

I Ski.

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#79

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11/20/09 at 12:01pm

Bob Barnes
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Quote:

Shall I explain what a dry land pivot slip is in my mind?

Dearest TC--anything that crosses your mind...usually deserves some sort of explanation!

;-)

Best regards,
Bob

EPICSKI ACADEMY — Discover the Expert in You!
Arapahoe Basin * Stowe * Aspen * Big Sky

#80

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11/20/09 at 12:03pm

Trekchick
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Try this

Put two pieces of paper on the floor like this. Stand on the pieces of paper.

put your hands on your hips to be sure the hips don't move, then do the charlie chaplin thingy, which will help you keep your hips square and facing forward.
..... then twist one leg/foot(from the femur) so that the toes are pointing in the same direction, then do your pivot slips (moving both feet at the same time) on the paper making sure your upper and lower body stay separated.

Does this make sense?

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#81

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11/20/09 at 12:14pm

Bob Barnes
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Very good!

Quote:

...do the charlie chaplin thingy, which will help you keep your hips square and facing forward...

One very picky point of clarification, before someone runs off with a major misconception: While this drill does indeed keep your hips (pelvis) "square" to the surroundings (walls and such), it is this stillness of the pelvis while the legs rotate beneath it that creates "counter"--the twisted relationship of the feet to the upper body (including pelvis).

I'd hate to think that someone might misinterpret us and declare that leg rotation causes a "square" stance, rather than the "counter" that actually results. (Gee, who would do a thing like that???)

;-)

Best regards,
Bob

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Arapahoe Basin * Stowe * Aspen * Big Sky

#82

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11/20/09 at 12:20pm

Trekchick
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Thanks Bob. I would love it if you could clean up my post and make my jumbled explanation clear.

The cool thing about this dry land drill is that I can feel the separation and hopefully translate it to the hill when we get snow.......if we get snow!

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#83

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11/20/09 at 2:38pm

mikewil
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Hey Bob,

Funny I ran across this thread.

Yesterday, while working with my golf coach here in sunny south FlooryDa, we went into the PGA's Center for Golf Learning and Performance's gym (known as Area 59-an inside golf joke) to do a little mirror work after viewing the video we had just shot and prior to heading back to the practice tee. I got volunteered to test a new piece of equipment they were demoing. Similar to the turntable devices Donnie has made but it has only one rotary platform (your free leg is elevated about 6 inches and braced on a stationary platform) and your posterior is braced against the back of the stand. This forced the rotation of your leg both internally and externally to come out of the femoral socket (unless you tried to cheat a bit and twist your foot or moved your butt off the back brace). I was telling the Phd selling the device I knew a ski school trainer who would love this machine. Working one leg at a time really freed up the rotation through the hip socket.

Have a great season!

Mike

#84

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11/22/09 at 6:03pm

docbrad66
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A question for Bob / others.

to release the edges, does this start at the foot and the COM is allowed to move downhill?
or is the COM more actively moved over the skis?

our old SSD would tend to ding any release move that include an up movement....
thanks

ps - i'm thinking in the context of a groomed run pivot slip

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

Bob would agree that the edge release in the Pivot Slip comes from your COM moving over the skis?

I think being able to move your COM over your skis no matter the steepness or the gnarliness is what the difference is between a good ski on a groomered black trail who cant ski offtrail well, to someone who can almost always link turns anywhere on the mountain..

#85

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11/22/09 at 7:26pm

bud heishman
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Quote:

Originally Posted by docbrad66

A question for Bob / others.

to release the edges, does this start at the foot and the COM is allowed to move downhill?
or is the COM more actively moved over the skis?

our old SSD would tend to ding any release move that include an up movement....
thanks

ps - i'm thinking in the context of a groomed run pivot slip

I can't speak for Bob, but I believe good pivot slips do not require any active flexion/extension and that the release initiates in the feet and ankles, and the Cg is pretty stationary in relation to the BOS. But then pivot slips are Bob's play ground so I digress to whatever he says.

I find it fun to go from pivot slips to short radius turns back to pivot slips then into open parallel turns and back to pivot slips and so on, as a drill. It is very easy to bring in as much edge angle as you like but the real benefit is in the top of the turns.

Edited by bud heishman - 11/22/09 at 7:36pm

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#86

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11/24/09 at 10:12am

MasterGoa
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Joined: October 2009
Location: Deux-Montagnes, Quebec
Post Count: 118

http://www.vivatexte.com/eprep/cscf/husky/make_module.asp?module=E674ADDE-C623-466B-AB06-CF71CBCC4EEB

Go to Level 4

Go down to Technical Skills, Fast as possible Braquage and click on the video!

MG

#87

Rating: 0

11/24/09 at 5:47pm

Bob Barnes
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Joined: September 2000
Location: Summit County, Colorado, USA
Post Count: 3,647

Whoa! Cool website, MasterGoa, with lots of great drills and images. But let's not confuse what they're doing in that "Fast as possible Braquage" clip with what I've described as Pivot Slips. For the most part, these demonstrations are the very antithesis of what I've described. Probably the closest is the second skier, who appears around 0:05. Most of the rest simply pivot to a hard edgeset, then either rebound (skier around 0:40) or push off from that engaged edge to pivot the other way. (Please note that I am not necessarily being critical of the demonstrations in this clip--they simply aren't demonstrations of what I've described.)

Here's a clip that shows Pivot Slips with edge releases and "independent leg rotation" (a preview of what will soon become the online multimedia Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing here at EpicSki):

Note the continuous, smooth movements, the relatively slow pivots, and the lack of edgesets. The tails are never pushed out to initiate the pivot--rather, the tips slip down the hill faster than the tails as the legs guide the skis into the pivot. And notice the same activity in the initiations of the basic turns near the end of the clip.

Although Pivot Slips should, ideally, involve parallel skis, the difference I'm describing becomes dead obvious when the two skis don't pivot at the same time. If there is a "stem," with the outside ski pivoting "tail out" first (quite obvious in most of the skiers in the Snowstars clip), it is a pushoff. If it shows any sort of divergence ("V") at the initiation of the pivot, where the inside (downhill) ski pivots first, with its tip moving downhill and away from the other tip, it is the "release and guide" activity I'm looking for. Note that the racer in the Snowstars clip shows just this release and divergence of the inside ski as he initiates the turn at around 1:05, in a movement pattern quite different from that of most of the skiers doing the braquage drill.

Best regards,
Bob

EPICSKI ACADEMY — Discover the Expert in You!
Arapahoe Basin * Stowe * Aspen * Big Sky

#88

Rating: 0

11/24/09 at 6:09pm

Bob Barnes
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Joined: September 2000
Location: Summit County, Colorado, USA
Post Count: 3,647

For what it's worth, on the Snow Stars site that MasterGoa linked to above (http://www.vivatexte.com/eprep/cscf/husky/make_module.asp?module=E674ADDE-C623-466B-AB06-CF71CBCC4EEB), the "Rosee" drill (Level 7 Technical Skills) more closely resembles Pivot Slips, although because of the very quick pivots in this drill, the upper body gets involved in a quick "counter-rotation" move. True Pivot Slips should involve only the legs, with no rotation or counter-rotation in the upper body, and no blocking pole plant (also involving the upper body).

(For those fans of Sir Isaac Newton, it is a good test of your understanding to identify just where the "equal and opposite counter force" in Pivot Slips is! It does NOT involve the upper body.)

Best regards,
Bob

EPICSKI ACADEMY — Discover the Expert in You!
Arapahoe Basin * Stowe * Aspen * Big Sky

#89

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11/25/09 at 10:25am

MasterGoa
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Joined: October 2009
Location: Deux-Montagnes, Quebec
Post Count: 118

Hey Bob, thanks for the clarification.

The video I suggested, show the second person doing
right and left slips while holding her hips straight to the downline.

This is what I interpreted as what you are suggesting.

My untrained eye does not detect egdework in that sequence :O(

MG

#90

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11/25/09 at 10:26am

KevinF
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Joined: July 2002
Location: Marlboro, Massachusetts
Post Count: 2,165

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Barnes

Although Pivot Slips should, ideally, involve parallel skis, the difference I'm describing becomes dead obvious when the two skis don't pivot at the same time. If there is a "stem," with the outside ski pivoting "tail out" first (quite obvious in most of the skiers in the Snowstars clip), it is a pushoff. If it shows any sort of divergence ("V") at the initiation of the pivot, where the inside (downhill) ski pivots first, with its tip moving downhill and away from the other tip, it is the "release and guide" activity I'm looking for.

What's the phrase I'm looking for? "V's for Vail, not A's for uhhhhh, Arapahoe Basin"?

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