Purchasing a KneeBinding????

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHRISfromRI 

 

Does anyone else out there have 25 ski days on Kneebindings? If not, and you've been on them, what have you got?

 

Also one other note that may be of interest: I spent several hours skiing the day before yesterday with one of the PSIA East Div Examiners, and we both happen to have the same size boot sole lengths, so we stepped into each other's skis/bindings for a good number of runs. It's always good fun to drive test something different! We both skied well on varied terrain, and he obviously skis even better than I do. We skied a lot of runs over those several hours and both liked my Monsters/Kneebindings combo, had no pre-releases, lost no AFDs, and had no issues with the brakes. Could it be that better skiers just don't have these problems to any significant degree - or is it that that the people here that are having problems are inflating them while they try to damage the good and building reputation of the best/only product out there that is attempting to reduce the current ACL rupture epidemic - as they themselves endeavor to protect the status quo in bindings that they may have some personal or financial interest in? WRT to Rick, I'm thinking he's just currently got an axe to grind.

 What does a Psia East Examiner have to do with the binding? Absolutely nothing. You're attempting to establish credibility for a binding with a good skier? 

Congrats, you had a good day since the AFD didn't fall off! (guess you were'nt skiing hard?) By you're own admission you carry a bag of AFD's to be replaced "like postage stamps" !!

The inventor of the binding has just told you about the importance of a very low friction surface for the heel.  The current production version seems to ignore that critical piece of engineering in order to compensate for faulty production. Oh, but you had a great day on the slopes so everything must be fine!  People had great days on the slopes with long thong attachments to their skis, even Psia Examiners!

CHRISfromRI, you're posts for this binding are sounding like the band playing while the Titanic was sinking.  At least give us something of value to go on.

Tog: That's just not true. I never said what you said I said! Please read what I wrote and do NOT misquote me NOR use my words out of context.

I said I have lost a few in 25 days of skiing and the company generously sent me a bag of them to replace any I've lost. I do NOT carry a bag of spares with me as I ski since I've only lost a few in 25 days of skiing. I see no need to even carry a spare with me because in the worst case the higher heel friction of not having an AFD in place is still in no way as limiting for a potential lateral heel release as if I were skiing on my Markers or Looks which have NO lateral heel release feature whatsoever.

My comment about postage stamps was simply to express how easy it is to replace one, in the event one gets lost. I went even further to say that the inconvenience of sticking another one on, similar to the way one applies a postage stamp, is absolutely trivial compared to the inconvenience of a ruptured ACL.

Your point about me not skiing "hard enough" makes me think you're simply a "slasher", rushing some phases of your turns rather than a good skier who knows how to modulate their edges on and off, and spends an appropriate amount of time in all of the phases of their turn.

I would be all too happy to not say anything else until I have more experience in the way of ski days to report, IF YOU WOULD NOT MISQUOTE ME!

Rick: No, I did not read your previous post as we were both writing ours at the same time (10:21AM and 10:19AM post times). I will indeed read it thoroughly.

Yo Momma: Please read my note to Tog clarifying that "I did not say what you said I said". I do not carry spares with me, let alone a whole bag full.

Hi all,

I just bought two sets of these yesterday - one for me and one for my girlfriend after finding this forum a couple of weeks ago.  Thanks to the inventor for the very helpful instructive comments/tutorial.  Such a thorough explanation of how the binding works/is supposed to work totally sold me on these.

I have three questions for those with these bindings:

1) Having checked this forum again last night, I was disappointed to hear that there are design flaws and that the flaws are implied to affect safety.  I know there are problems with these bindings but I have them now and I want to do what is necessary to have them work properly (save my knees from injury).  At this point,  I want to do what I can so that the bindings function as the inventor intended.  If the manufacturer is not providing the best solutions, can someone post what other solutions there are?  (Even if any modifications invalidate the warranty, that's fine with me as long as it makes the bindings work to save me from knee injuries.)

So what are the most critical flaws related to the knee saving feature and what are the fixes (assuming the manufacturer's fixes are not up to snuff)?  E.g. how do you keep the teflon AFD's from falling off? Is it really just a matter of toe height adjustment (what is the needed spec not the current one) and what about the heel?   Sounds like Rick has some work arounds.

2) Settings - there are DIN settings to adjust the bindings, but for the video (on this thread or another) and Rick's posted settings, the engineering numbers are in daN or daNm.  They are different for each adjustment: i.e. Rick's settings 3.8 daNm for toe, 37 daNm for forward release, 30 daN for lateral heel.  I don't have the tester in the YouTube video, so how do these translate to the DIN settings assuming everything is according to original inventor spec/intention?  E.g. if the tech who mounted my bindings set all the adjustments to say a DIN of 7, are each of the adjustments of 7 "scaled" proportionately according to Rick's settings.

3)  Without fixing the bindings to bring them up to the inventor's intentions, how do the deficient bindings compare to current bindings on the market.  In other words, if I can't fix these bindings now, should I be skiing on my old bindings?

Sounds like there could be a little side business for someone who is technically inclined to "boost" the bindings to bring them to the "safer" spec of the inventor.  I am sure this would invalidate the original manufacturer's warranty and they would strongly recommend against this but some people like myself would be interested.  This would be like rear shocks on mountain bikes - there are companies and individuals out there who will modify these things to perform better than the original product e.g. PUSH Industries and Fox shocks.

Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHRISfromRI 

 

Update on my Kneebinding Experience

 

I am up to 27 ski days on my Kneebindings (of my 41 total ski days so far this season), by an expert skier in all conditions and on all terrain. Still NO pre-releases, NO knee injuries, NO bone breaks, just GREAT skiing!

 

Also, my wife and sister-in-law have around 15 ski days on their Kneebindings, also with NO pre-releases, NO knee injuries, NO bone breaks, just GREAT skiing!

gee whiz, I've been skiing for about 40 years and never hurt a knee, nor broke a leg, and have not had all that many pre-releases---the last was 27 years ago---and he is now a reasonably well adjusted dad of his own, after some rough high school and early adult years, thanks for askin.

whats your point??

tell us when you have had a crash from which the forces would have ordinarily caused any of the above and the binding, in your opinion, saved you from serious injury.

Oh brother, talk about stating the statistical obvious.

This just in: "person skis 27 days and doesn't burst into flames!"

I just got a Knee sprain.

There was a HUGE amount of twist torque applied only at the rear end of the ski. If I did not work out

heavily 7 times a week, I am sure I would not be walking. The Marker binding did finally release, but well

after it should have.

Of course, this was the first day of a week skiing in Switzerland, where I had to take a day off and

ski like an old lady for the rest of the week....

Now, many of you may not think a minor sprain is a big deal, but the last time I got hurt was a sprained

ankle when I was 17 (I am 53, and very active).

I am very interested in these bindings now. I am sure if I had lateral release at the rear of the binding,

there would be no injury.

Larry

Larry, you're thinking of getting rid of your Markers because they did their job?  The binding is designed to release you before a leg breaks, it is not designed to elminate sprains.  There is also no way to tell from your report if the Kneebinding would have prevented your sprain

Larry,

If you make it up to WV let me know via PM and I would be happy to show you my Kneebindings and even take a run with you and show you how they don't pre-release and do allow you to ski well. Time will of course tell whether they do "statistically" prevent knee injuries, but they sure seem to work fine for me until the statisticians are eventually happy - with the only downside being some short money. - Chris

Rick,

Thanks for the information.  I recently bought two sets of bindings and posted to this forum a few days ago.  I have a couple of questions that I hope you are willing to answer. 

"Once KneeBinding ski bindings are brought to specification (Teflon adhesion and brake-actuation are no-brainers that were solved 30-years ago in thousands of applications), I remain confident that KneeBinding ski bindings are a major paradigm shift in skiing safety and skiing performance.  ( I now can't pry-off the Teflon with a screwdriver.) "

Just to be clear, are these the only design flaws (Teflon adhesion and brake-actuation) that will cause off the shelf, first-run production Kneebindings to fail in the 28 events that you discuss?  I assume that failure of the Teflon AFD is the biggest flaw that in itself would lead to improper/non release for most if not all of the 28 events.

As for pre-release, I have now backed my settings down 30% below "chart settings" (with the release modifications in place) and have had zero pre-releases. 

Can you be more specific about "chart setting?"  Also, is that an across the board 30% reduction on ALL three adjustable settings?  Could read off your settings on all three adjustments?  There is a video that shows skiers twisting their boot in the ski and the boot coming out, can you do this with your settings?

If there isn't a legal issue with your former company, could you post or email me a picture of your modifications?  WRTO the Teflon AFD, I see what looks to be a threaded insert in the middle of the piece that the Teflon pad sits on top of.  If I could find a countersink screw that fits that insert and sink the screw below the Teflon top surface, it could fix the teflon to the piece. 

Thanks.

Update on my Kneebinding Experience

I am up to 29 ski days on Kneebindings (of my 43 total ski days this season), by an expert skier skiing in all conditions on all terrain - still NO pre-releases or problems, just great skiing.

At this point this season I have had several good spills on the Kneebindings where I released out of the bindings, including one rather dramatic one where I was hit from behind by another skier on very steep terrain and was knocked out of both skis as well as knocked completely unconscious for a short bit (BTW the brakes worked just fine and kept my skis nearby while I shook off that minor concussion, and in a few minutes I put my skis back on and skied away from a major shunt). Thankfully everything is well and I'm skiing stronger than ever on my reconstructed zombi ACL (that had its one-year surgical anniversary yesterday, and was ruptured last season while using Look bindings).

As I previously mentioned I have had to replace a few rear AFDs that fell off, but I now believe I have that situation figured out and have come up with a very simple mechanical solution that prevents this. I will report more fully on this in the future, once I can prove that what I have come up with is indeed a real solution and helps the rear AFDs to stay on.

Happy Skiing!

I have been intrigued by the the Kneebinding since I first heard about it in December, and just ordered a pair.  I have talked to the folks at the Kneebinding company a couple of times, and they've assured me they have a second generation AFD and brake that works well.  We'll see, but being that I'm the prime target audience for the ski, i.e. female amateur skier with sore knees who likes to push the limits, it seems like it's worth trying.  i'm light and don't tend to challenge bindings quite as much, although I do lead my kids into the terrain park and like skiing off the beaten trail.  I'll report back after I ski on them, but I have to mention that the people I've talked to at the Kneebinding company seem pretty reasonable, and they've been selling out of the one local shop that carries them.  That, of course, means nothing statistically. 

Had my first day on the Kneebindings today.  Skiied untracked powder and some groomers.  I followed my own advice and modified the teflon heel AFD using a drill press to fit with the screw hole below the center of it.  I counter sunk a nylon screw into the AFD.  I did not peel off the backing (NO glue) of the teflon because I need to have the brakes switched out and I just know that the glue won't be as good being once removed.  So basically just three things held the heel AFDs in place: nylon screw which was about 0.5mm below flush, boot weight down, and the raised plastic that borders where the AFD sticks on.

The contact between AFD and boot is basically just a line.  It doesn't contact most of the pad especially because the rear end of the sole on my boot is beveled to help with walking.  I have Head S11 boots.  Most of the contact is towards the front edge of the teflon.

After a run, the rear of the pads were raised up.  This probably won't happen once I glue them down.  It's probably due to the heel pressure along the front levering up the rear perhaps through the single screw as a fulcrum.  This proved interesting because it would allow the teflon AFD to rotate askew if the heel moved.  This later happened when my right ski tip dove in powder at a pretty slow speed and I fell (only once).  The other ski twisted slowly about my left ankle and I fell on it and it against my left pole.  The bindings did not release.  I later noticed that pad was askew.  I dismounted thinking that the teflon probably ripped apart at the screw but no, it was just askew (The other pad was fine.)  I rotated it back about 10 degrees to center and skiied the rest of the day with no falls through powder and down groomers with moderate speed without AFD's rotating out of place.  BTW, the bindings are mounted to G3 El Hombre's with a 105mm waist.  This ski does great on powder as well as groomers.

Edge control was good as advertised but I expected this because I have a pair of GS Volkl Racetigers on the older style Marker pistons that are raised pretty high and these have great edge control as well.

I am pretty sure I will solve the heel AFD issue once I glue it down.  I will proably reinforce the peel back adhesive with backcountry skin glue.  I might experiment around with UHMWPE screws instead of nylon if I can find some.  I like the friction properties of that material over nylon.  A telfon screw probably won't be strong enough.  Stainless steel might work if the finish is really good.  The screw needs to be 8-32 and cut down to the right length.  And even though, the company says the telfon AFD's are not even necessary, I would prefer to have teflon back there for consistency (I do have an engineering background).  Without the heel AFD's mounted, the night before, I did have a friend stand on the rear of my skis on carpet and I was able to both walk out and twist out at my DIN setting of 7 for toe, heel, and lateral.

This is just my experience so far; I am not claiming that this is a reliable fix or that this modification is 100% effective or that you should do this yourself, so please don't flame me.  I think that it will work for me and what I want from these bindings until the company itself does something similar.

I have yet to ski a KneeBiding, but i did have a chance to fondle one the other day. I will say that I was very disappointed with the quality and materials of this binding. The materials felt on par with a low entry level binding, not a premium $495.00 one. At close to $500.00, I would expect all metal housing let alone a DIN window. I would like to see what a real binding manufacturer with financial resources could do with this design. 

When I looked at the Knee Binding last week,   it didn't seem like the materials were "low-end".  It's slightly bulkier than some of the other bindings on the market, and if it were made entirely of metal it would probably be substantially heavier.  I don't like heavy bindings, so it seems like a decent balance of substance and lighter weight. 

I looked a little closer at my bindings last night, and I agree with the last two posters.  Yes, they look to be mostly plastic and if you don't like plastic then you don't like plastic.  But the plastic is really excellent plastic - it is dense but light.  It looks very solid but not brittle.  These things are going to last.  I have played around with the toe height adjustment and the stainless steel screw moves with great ease and yet is snug enough so that you know it's not going to back out or tighten up.  I don't really care if there are windows or not just as long as adjustments don't come undone and I can read the settings.  If a binding is designed more for looks as a priority rather than safety then I am not interested.

And yes, it is incredibly light and that feature is very noticeable when you are sitting on the lift chair with your skis hanging off your legs and when you are carrying your skis from the parking lot to the resort.

I thought I also read that it is made in America.  This is also important to me.  Most of the ski companies with the "financial" resources" are making things in China, Slovenia, etc.  That contributes a great deal to price to consumers' cost but moves jobs from here to there.  I'll pay a few extra dollars to keep jobs here and save my knees and my girlfriend's knees (at least for phantom foot events and she's a fearful beginner/intermediate skier).

At this point, for what I am looking for, it is a great product (Granted, I am willing to tinker a little with them and I think I understand enough about the underlying physics and engineering issues that were brought up in this forum to trust myself to safely do so for myself).

And for what it's worth, customer service has been great especially considering that the company is on the East coast and I am on the West coast.  So thank you to BOTH Rick and Kneebinding (hope you all eventually make things better between yourselves because it turns into a lose-lose for the consumer if you don't).

Update on my Kneebinding Experience

I am up to 31 ski days on Kneebindings (of my 45 total ski days this season), by an expert skier skiing in all conditions on all terrain - still NO pre-releases or problems, just great skiing.

At this point I believe that I have resolved the Heel AFD loss issue with a simple reversible mechanical solution:

First, is that I believe the failure mechanism is one where snow gets between the boot sole and the Heel AFD while skiing in piles of soft snow and bumps because the heel of the boot dynamically moves around and allows snow to enter and build up there. This snow buildup eventually causes the Heel AFD to be deformed into the two large screw holes in the Heel AFD mounting surface (these two large holes occupy around 25 percent of the Heel AFD mounting area). I have correlated that just before the Heel AFD falls off the surface of the Heel AFD has two large depressions in it over those two holes, and because it has now been essentially stretched into those two holes it is warped with respect to its overall flat mounting surface (like a sheet of metal being ball peened into a depression, the sheet loses its overall perimeter flatness). Once it gets more and more warped I have seen the rear edge start to lift away from the mounting surface altogether. Then it eventually falls off since the adhesive is no longer sticking two flat surfaces together. So my first experiment has been to fill the voids between the Heel AFD and the screw heads with balled up aluminum foil, and using a pin punch and a small hammer compress it to a near solid material that cannot be displaced and that is perfectly flush with the surrounding mounting surface. This will still allow it to be picked out with a scratch awl and removed when there is a need to get to those screws in the future. The idea is to fill the voids with a solid material whose surface is flush with the overall mounting surface. Then the factory sticky-tape Heel AFD is applied to the whole flat solid mounting surface and will not be deformed and warp. Result: After multiple days of intensive testing in soft snow piles and bumps on steep terrain the surface of the Heel AFDs looks like they were just applied with no depressions or warping, and like they are going to last much longer.

Should this simple mechanical fix prove to not be entirely effective I have planned (but not yet had to try) an additional step, though I do like Squaw11111's nylon screw idea and may incorporate that as well. The Teflon sheet stock being used by Kneebinding has not been "etched" on its rear side to allow good adhesion, and we know that Teflon is a slippery material and problematic for most adhesives. Teflon sheet stock can be purchased at www.smallparts.com including that which has already been "etched" on one side for adhesion with "typical epoxy glues". I have not selected an epoxy glue yet but it will need a very low temperature rating and to be compatible with most plastics.

I will continue to report on the success of this all, in this thread.

Well, I'm glad to hear that even though you obviously have a defective binding (considering that you are having to engineer ways to make them ski-able) that you haven't had an injury.  Most shops generally tell their customers that it is unwise and unsafe to ski a binding with missing or damaged parts.  In my opinion, you've been lucky. 

Since the bindings are not functioning properly it would be difficult to really assess their effectiveness.  Perhaps you should talk to the manufacturer and see if they'll warranty their defective bindings.

I seriously cannot believe that you are so excited about something that has broken after 31 days of skiing (actually much faster as you've been posting your repair ideas).  This binding has potential but I think you are being reckless by suggesting the people get on these bindings that have known manufacturing defects

Well....

It sounds like the KneeBinding needs three things---

1--Get it right.

2--Make it transportable to other skis.  Rick, can this be done?  At $500, maybe more for a mounting plate, I'd want one for my three pair of skis.

3--Licensed or bought out by one of the big binding makers...Amer Sports (Atomic & Salomon), Chartreuse & Mont Blanc (Rossignol, Dynastar, Look labels), Head (Tyrolia, Head, Fischer labels), Jarden (Marker).  (By the way, Jarden owns a minority interest in the ownership of Rossi......)  Can KneeBinding get the wide distribution it needs without an interest by one of the ski giants?

skierhj:

Actually it's pretty easy to get really excited about a NEW binding that allows me to ski WELL on my newly reconstructed ACL that was just blown last year using status quo traditional Look bindings. I don't mind being an early adopter and dealing with a minor inconvenience or two, and even applying my professional engineering background to a relatively incidental solution like helping the Heel AFD to last much a lot longer - because the result is that I am skiing a LOT and WELL on the ONLY binding on the market offering some degree of protection against a repeat of the Phantom Foot ACL Injury I sustained last year while on Looks.

That injury that I sustained last year racked up $20K in medical bills, cost me half my ski season, and then put me through a 6 month grueling rehab. There were plenty of other inconveniences that went along with the injury/recovery process, like lost work, a huge hassling travelling on airplanes with crutches and braces, and missing out on a lot of fun with family and friends.

We need to put the Kneebinding Heel AFD issue into true perspective. Even if when I was occasionally skiing just after losing a Heel AFD, and the resulting increased friction from not having a Heel AFD entirely stopped the lateral heel release feature from working - I would have been no worse off than if I had been using the Looks I was using last year and that I proved myself have ZERO protection against a Phantom Foot ACL Injury - since I sustained that exact injury while using the Looks. So, worst case was that I was always at least THAT safe. In my view, I was always actually more safe than that, because at least the lateral heel release feature was always there, even if not optimal.

Maybe I'm being a little harsh on Looks because at least they never pre-released on me. OTOH, my Markers and Salomons did pre-release on me numerous times in previous seasons. All in all, I am very unimpressed with the status quo in traditional Alpine bindings, and happy to see something better come along.

Yeah, you better believe I am really excited about Kneebindings, this thing has great promise and for me has been a great experience overall!

Chris,

I'm not saying that this binding does not have great potential.  I too have suffered knee injuries but here's my issue.  You are raving about a product that has defects.  These defects can and hopefully will be corrected in the future but as of now, the manufacturer changed the original design and the binding does not work as designed.  Therefore, there is a distinct possibility that this binding is not safe to use.  The fact that you've not yet been injured does not prove it's safety or quality. 

I've also not injured my knees this year (or in recent years) but in no way would I tell anyone that this fortune is the result of my bindings.  It isn't.  There is no way to prove that you bindings are preventing an injury to you or anyone else.  Rick Howell has a test that, in a lab, shows that the forces that frequently cause injury are alleviated with this binding.  I am quite frankly, concerned that your reckless posts will cause somebody to buy this unproven, defective biniding and get hurt.  Most shops won't touch a binding if the DIN window is missing as they can't trust it's reliability.  You are suggesting to many people to use a binding that has not gone through the standardized testing, and has several known manufacturing defects, how can we be sure this binding is reliable.  The designer himself has suggested that you not make so many unproven claims.  You need to understand that you are being dangerous.  Just as dangerous as an out of control skier.  I hope these bindings continue to give you the safety you crave.  I hope that nobody get hurt on them, and I really do hope that this binding either reduces knee injuries or sparks a movement to make a binding that will reduce injuries.

I'm confused as to why you'd be "harsh on Looks because at least they never pre-released"...not pre-releasing is a good thing.  I don't think that todays bindings are where they need to be.  But I'm not losing parts off of my bindings. 

Rick,

I apologize I don't think I was completely clear.  On the testing issue I was indicating that the bindings had not passed testing in their damaged condition.  I was not attempting to claim that the binding in it's designed condition has any problems whatsoever.  I was indicating that with AFD's falling off there was no way to test for reliability of the binding in that condition.  I know there has been sginficant testing on the bindings in theri pristine condition but what about after the manufacturing defect (which I also know you were not part of)?

As for the DIN windows I wasn't talking about the kneebindng.  I was using a "missing" DIN window on a binding (any binding) as a cause for a shop to reject it. In Chris' case his binding is missing AFD's and that just not safe. 

In speaking recently with the manufacturer, I was told that TUV now has a femur torque test and that the company worked with TUV after Rick left the company.  This is why this situation is a lose-lose situation - I trust that Rick is telling everything he knows about the state of the situation when he was booted September 2008.  Some of that information is not current anymore, so I don't know who is telling the truth at this point. 

The company supposedly has femur torque-tested the current binding without the teflon AFD's and it still works.  Will the teflon make it more consistent? probably.  Does the high grade plastic resin still have a decently low coefficient of friction? yes.  As consistent as teflons? Probably not as consistent, but is it good enough?  Obviously, Chris and I think so.

Now, without the entire lateral heel function, will the binding still work as good as any binding out there?  I was told by a friend who is an ex-ski shop owner, that minus the lateral heel release, the binding looks like Geze's last iteration of a toe piece (which Rossi did not use after buying the company) and one of the later iterations of the heel.  In other words, a damn good binding even without the lateral heel release third dimension.  I did "test" the heel release by stepping out of it at DIN 7.  I "tested" the lateral release with no teflon AFD and I could laterally slide out at DIN 7.   I trust the toe release works based on what my friend said about Geze's last set of bindings to market and that this was probably one of the best toe's in his opinion (and he doesn't know why Rossi dropped it.)

So this leaves the consumer confused at this point.  The binding is good enough for me and NO, NO, NO I don't recommend that other people do what I did in modifying it.  But if you are confident in your understanding of what can be improved like me, Chris and Rick are (we all modified it but I am not saying my modification is better than others like Rick's or that mine is even safe or effective), then there are some ideas out there.