BEst price on Kjus pike Jacket?

Has anyone seen The Kjus pike #MS15-111 jacket below $1,190?

I want one bad but $1200.00 is crazy!!!

It is pretty nice stuff. This year was the first time I had a good chance to get my hands on it. People here in JH are buying it up at retail- pre season no less.

I like it, but I'd be scared to wear a $1200 jacket. Heck, I worry about my new marmot!

I dunno, $1200 = A dope pair of skis... I know it's nice stuff but you'd probably be better off to buy a $500 SICK Arc'Teryx jacket and put the other $700 towards something like a plane ticket, hotel room or even a pair of skis or boots! The very high end stuff like that is rarely available at discount, but good luck anyways!

Yeah, we keep having these early season is-it-worth-it threads, guess to complement the end of season is-this-a-good-deal threads. Like Do-Work says, that's a nice pair of skis and bindings, or a full season pass somewhere plus a deluxe pair of gloves. Is this jacket really gonna do that much more for you than an Arcteryx or Cloudveil or Mountain Hardware, hell, at that price even a newly uncool Spyder, or is it the symbolic capital of owning one? Tell you one thing; the cost of making it IS NOT twice that of above brands. Someone's getting rich because Americans have a thing about "old world quality" rather than actual use.

Yeah I guess u guys are rite!! I just like the Jacket tho.. But there is one from arc'teryx that i like...

I've seen it on sale at retailers in the spring {like everything else!}. Perhaps those sales will start a bit earlier this year.

They have some type of distribution center in downtown Farmington, Maine {about 45 minutes south of Sugarloaf, an hour from Sunday River}. In the summer, there's some town celebration. I think it may be called Farmington Days. At that time they roll out a TON of last year's stock and have a sidewalk sale. The prices are rock bottom low. $800 jackets for $100, etc. We had hoped to hit it this summer but it didn't work out.

It's very nice stuff. I found out about this deal a couple of years ago, about 6 months after having bought a jacket and pants for my wife, and real close to retail! My wife's jacket and pants were made in Switzerland. Fabric is awesome. Current prices are insane.

The guy selling this one on ebay has sold a few at $850:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=120336120587

CJ

So much for the bad economy if $1,000 jackets are selling. Looks great for sure and has all the bells and whistles. I like the idea of being able to grab one in the summer ten cents on the dollar.

Another idea. There's a shop at the base of Stratton, in Vermont. The Starting Gate. They sell a lot of Kjus, and they sell on-line. Google it. They also tend to have a lot of close-out stuff which is half-price {on-line}, and in this economy, they might make a deal. Hell, they might make a deal on the new stuff if you ask. A lot of the weekend crowd that might buy those $1200 jackets are NYC investment types. Not sure if many will be selling up there. As many of us know, at least part of the JH "economy" is very unique. Still the best skiing on the planet, IMO.

Check into the Starting Gate.

I ski alot with my buddy who has made alot of money the last couple of years (unlike me) and buys whatever he wants, always asks me what he should buy, anyway he bought a Kus jacket last year and when we were out in Vail he went into one of the shops (think it was Gorusch) and bought a pair of Kus pants to go with it. I forget what month it was, but the store had a bunch of clothing inventory still. The sales guy said Kus was there best seller. Their "carriage trade" customers that bought Bogner hated the new jackets with the patches and they weren't selling. Kus apparently is making big strides to become the new high end king.

Comparing Kjus to an arcteryx, cloudveil and all others is like comparing a Ferrari 460 GTO with an Enzo engine to a Chevy Malibu

Seriously, once you get a Kjus you will not want to wear anything else...fits better, feels better, better technology, better design, etc. I love all my Kjus gear and I used to be a huge Arcteryx fan.

I hate to admit it. I used to be a huge Arcteryx fan as well, but now I'm all about Kjus, for all of the reasons you posted above. But at least I didn't get a $1,300. jacket. The $900. jacket about did me in...felt guilty for weeks and weeks, but I absolutely LOVE all my Kjus gear. (I think I'm still trying to justify it here!) At least the prices on Kjus pants, base-layers, beanies, etc. are a bit easier to swallow!

Shameless plug on my part, but I'm selling a pair of very lightly used women's Kjus pants, size medium, on the Gear Swap, B&S forum. Great pants, just a touch too tight for my wife. Had to mention it!!!

Fabrics

One thing I don;t get about all this talk about Kjus: they are using Dermizax EV, which if I remeber correctly is a polyurethane membrane coating made by Toray- similar to Entrant or some other similar coating. Dermizax is pretty similar to the original GoreTex, is worse than GoreXCR, and is definitely much worse than eVent. How come they are so superior if they are using an inferior waterproof-breathable technology? Are you guys who are Kjus fans skiing in relatively cold places? I can see an advantage of having a less breathable jacket there- it keeps your microclimate inside.

I have a old Phenix jacket with made with Dermizax, and while it is very nice, it breathes less well than my Arcteryx. EVent jackets breathe so well that they are almost too cold for skiing.

Alex

Man I paid $450 for a high end North Face jacket back in the mid 90's and I thought that was nuts. There is no way in hell that jacket is worth $1200. I could maybe see it if they were custom made or some other BS.

Thanks for the heads-up. I just bought a pair of pants (each) for my wife and I. I just wish they had some jackets in our sizes.

CJ

That's a pretty general statement. Have you ever tried one? The technology is pretty cutting edge- a polymer that absorbs heat when your hot (skiing) and releases it when you get cold (riding the lift); another polymer that is flexible during normal use but hardens instantly when struck (running into a tree). The jacket is worth what one is willing to pay for it. I'm sure that some people have no idea why someone would pay more than $50 for a jacket.

CJ

I am pretty skeptical about the real benefit of the heat-absorbing polymer (is it Outlast? in that case these are tiny capsules of a waxy polymer that melts at the temperature close to the body temperature). Even in that case the amount of material seems to be too small to cope with the heat flow from a human body that is exercising. To be able to absorb all this heat the material must be much, much thicker. I am sure Outlast does something, but that is not going to make a huge difference. Breathability of the fabric on the other hand makes a huge difference (since the main temperature mechanism is evaporative cooling, i. e. sweating; radiative cooling is not a good opion for a fully clothed body; on the other hand if you ski naked, it is probably all radiative...).

I am very confused about the impact-hardening polymer-is that in the jacket material itself? Even if it hardens to a rock-like strength, to offer real protection it again needs to be thick...

Every time you buy a piece of gear these days, it is festooned with a dozen tags that detail "technologies" that went into this thing... Some of it is undeniably marketing, and some of it does work.

I admit, $1200 for a jacket, also sounds pretty high to me, but the price is what someone is willing to pay for it. It does seem like Kjus puts a bit more thought into the techical side than, say, Bogner; so this is a step in the right direction. For me personally, Arcteryx and Westcomb pretty much define the ultra-high end of the market. I either don't ski enough or don't make enough to afford more that that kind of gear.

A.

Regarding the polymer functioning to absorb heat and release heat, wouldn't it be possible to create the same effect using a zipper on your current jacket? Don't mind me, I 'm just upset that I want a Kus and can't afford it. I'd be curious to hear from the people that have this technology if they think it really works and makes a noticeable difference

For a vendor, going high-end is rarely a mistake - provided you your brand fits the segment, and you can deliver the goods.

There's always a market for ultra-premium goods.

Ferrari and Lamborghini sell even in downturns (with year-long waiting lists).

Please don't get me wrong, I'm somewhat skeptical too. I've been wearing Arc for the past few years and am now going to be trying out Kjus.

The Schoeller PCM is similar to how you describe Outlast and was developed for NASA. I don't think that it is used in place of regular insulation, just to supplement it, similar to how some core-body heating elements are used. That is why it does not need to be thick and why it doesn't hinder the breathability of the fabric.

To offer protection, something doesn't need to be thick, it just needs to be rigid to disperse the impact over a larger area. Try punching someone in the chest, and then try it if they have a carbon-fiber plate in front of them...

As far as the Dermizax EV compared with Gore-Tex, this is what Kjus has to say: http://kjusworldusa.blogspot.com/200...rmizax-ev.html

There is a website out there that tested all the different fabrics at the time and compared them for water resistance and breathability. Does anyone have the link?

CJ

Ok, you hold this carbon fiber plate... I'll get my brass knuckles...

Wasting money is certainly subjective, so I hesitate to tell someone they're doing so. I always say to get the best equipment you can afford, and if you've got the ching go for it. That said, if you're saying "Holy crap, $1200 for a jacket???" You probably can't afford it and will likely never miss wax polymers that regulate temp or the more expensive version of Gore Tex.

Dermizax-EV and GORE-TEX are membranes laminated within fabrics, not coatings. Entrant fabrics use DWR (Durable Waterproof Repellent) coatings in conjunction with a laminated membrane to prevent the outer layer of the waterproof breathable fabric from becoming saturated with water. Maintaining the DWR is critical to maintaining the breathable nature of waterproof breathable outerwear.

CJO, thanks for the link. This seems to be the bottom line:

"Dermizax-EV is a hydrophilic non-porous membrane- or in terms that are understandable it's a water loving film with no holes in it. The reason that technologies like Dermizax are hard to understand is that it "operates" at a molecular level and not physical...Gore-Tex is a porous technology- has holes. The holes are large enough for water vapor to pass, but too small for water in a liquid state to pass through. In tests Dermizax EV had better results and it is highly elastic and so it pairs very well with the stretch fabrics, as well as being very lightweight, waterproof, and breathable."

So, as I previously posted, I was a big Arc'teryx fan, but now I prefer Kjus. My GORE-TEX gear is very stiff and uncomfortable compared to my Kjus.

...an added benefit! I believe all of the Kjus outerwear is lightly insulated with PrimaLoft as well, but it does not feel bulky because of the 4-way stretch fabrics that they use.

BTW, $1200. is at the upper-end of their line. Most of their gear is under $1000. I paid $899. for my Fay Jacket. The Arc'teryx Sidewinder SV Shell Jacket is $598.95. Kinda' pricey for a GORE-TEX XCR shell if you ask me. You need to compare 'apples' to apples'. It's all relative isn't it! Many people would be 'floored' with the amount of money 'we' all spend to slide down a hill!

Here's some prices on Kjus Men's Jackets. Haven't seen that Men's Star Jacket at $1790. anyplace...now that's crazy! FYI, the most expensive women's jacket is $1290.

More tech on membranes...

Well, what works for NASA does not necessarily apply to us on Earth ;-) The reason is simple- astronauts do not have an option of opening a pitzip to cool them down in space, so they have to use heat management technologies that are applicable for a closed system, whereas a skier is in a very large environmental heat bath... I also doubt that a space suit is just as comfy as my ski jacket...

Kjus's blog sounds like a typical marketing BS, although technically it is not wrong. But here is what they don't tell you: any porous membrane will be vastly superior to a non-porous membrane in terms of water vapor breathability, so the stretched teflon membrane that is a base of GoreTex and eVent transports water vapor much better than a Dermizax membrane (which is I believe a polyurethane coating on the fabric). However a porous membrane is vulnerable to clogging by sweat, dust or whatever else is flying around in our dirty world. This is why Gore puts a thin layer of a protective non-porous membrane on top of their main membrane. The thinking is that a protective membrane is still thin enough not to impede breathability by much, but it will protect the main membrane pores. In reality of course the protective membrane cuts the breathability more than Gore would like to, but the resutl is very durable and reasonably breathable membrane.

eVent is basically the same stretched Teflon porous membrane but the approach to pore protection is radically different- they use chemical treatment instead of a protective layer. That is why you get superior breathability (because the pores are still open), but the downside is that it has a higher succeptibility to clogging. This is why a eVent jacket often has a label that says: "Wash me often"; this is a way to keep the pores open.

The saving grace for Dermizax is that hydrophilic membrane swells in a hot and sweaty environment and becomes marginally more breathable, so these membranes are in part self-regulating (but remember, so is GoreTex). Yet, they would never approach eVent breathability just becuase eVent is true porous membrane.

Bottom line- of three membranes (GoreTex, eVent, and Dermizax), Dermizax is he least breathable, although in real worls the difference between it and GoreTex is not that big. eVent trounces both in breathability, but its performance degrades ith time unless you wash it often. For a summer hiking jacket, eVent wins hands down. If you ski in cold places you will be just fine with Gore or Dermizax (in fact, eVent's breathability may make you feel too cold), for hot spring skiing days eVent will be much more comfortable. For the insulated skiwear I doubt that there is a huge difference between Dermizax and GoreTex, this is probably why most manufacturers use Dermizax.

Alex

DWR

As the previous poster mentioned the much overlooked component of the equation is the DWR coating on the outer fabric layer. If the outside is not wet, it does not matter, but when it rains or snows, then DWR makes a huge difference- if the outer layer becomes saturated with water, even the best membrane will stop breathing- there is no driving force for water to come out. That's why DWR is necessary to keep the water beading up on the outside of the fabric. This principle applies to every waterproof-breathable fabric on the market, no exception.

A.

alexzn,

Thanks for the great info, it's all very interesting.

You guys have taken the tech talk way over my simple mind

I can't tell you how one apparel maker is more technically sound than another...what I can tell you is that Kjus simply keeps me much warmer and best of all, has this stretchy material (sorry if that was too technical!) that makes it feel like I'm wearing a second skin.

As I type, I'm wearing a Kjus pullover which is as smooth as butter and looks pretty dang sharp as well!

Oh, I am not doubting that Kjus gear looks as good as they come. They are probably the first to realize the benefits of using stretch waterproof fabrics to make very form-fitting garments, power to them for doing it. I cannot afford or justify their gear for myself unless I find them on a VERY good sale (deep recession end-of-season pricing, please...), in that case I will be tempted.

I was always baffled by people paying top dollar for Bogner and the like that offered inferior technical features (no seam-sealing, etc.) but Kjus seems to be a bit different. I'd say if they dropped price to the Arcteryx's levels, they may increase their market penetration significantly, but looks like they are doing just fine. Kjus' technical decisions (DermizaxEV and Primaloft) seem to be quite sound overall.

My personal apparel prediction that this season and next we are going to see a lot more eVent pieces, it is finally going mainstream.

I guess I'll try them both out this season and see how they compare for me. I have Dermizax in the Kjus Formula jacket, Dermizax and PCM in the Kjus HiTech pants, Gore-Tex softshell in the Arc'Teryx Stingray jacket and pants (assuming I haven't sold them before my first runs), Schoeller WB-400 in a Marmot jacket, and, if my wife lets me try her jacket, eVent in a Westcomb jacket. However, I'm not sure that I'm willing to wear a purple jacket that's way too small, even for science

CJ

Even for science?...just jokin' I'm sure with all that gear, you're goin' to 'at least' be the best lookin' on the hill! I always strive for that! You know how some women have this thing for shoes and handbags? You see, it all started when I worked in the snowsports industry as a merchandiser and buyer...you guessed it, for 'ski clothes'. Well, my sister and I have the 'ski jacket, beanie disease'...we just can't help ourselves...it's 'bad'. Oh well, I guess it could be 'a lot' worse. Have a great season.