Time for the annual snow tire thread

I'm looking at the Hankook Icebear W300, the Yokohama Ice Guard IG20, and the Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D. Anyone have any advice on these?
Justin

To each his own. I'll repeat my own opinion. The ONLY thing that touches the road surface you're driving on are your four tires. Could most of us with decent driving skills, driving "wisely" drive in severe winter weather with a front wheel drive car and OEM A/S tires? Probably. Is it the best choice? Dunno. My own experience is that as our cars have become more sophisticated, the need for better winter tires has increased, not decreased. I've been driving the every weekend trip to ski country for 35+ years. I've lived for full winters in severe winter climates. I've driven in most of the northern part of this country, Canada, and Europe on good and really lousy roads in the dead of winter. I drive at least 30K miles a year.

Having driven through Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Alberta and BC last winter, I personally can't imagine parts of the drive without snows, and AWD. If you've done it enough, you know to slow down entering Wyoming as the highways are rarely "clear". You know what I mean. It's like a white line of tundra. I liked the comfort of what for me were the right tires, and vehicle out there. {Landcruiser with 4 Blizzak's}. It wouldn't be much fun driving over 4" of unplowed hardpack, while it was blowing about 50mph, on the all-season tires, at night, in the middle of nowhere, in my front wheel driver. Not if I had to stop, or avoid something. Not if I wanted to arrive without being exhausted. With all due respect, it's not a driving skills issue in my case. At least I don't believe so. A few years of driving, track time, driving schools, a small handful of speeding tickets, and thus far no accidents. I don't take any chances on snow or ice, ever.

Last winter I had a rental Nissan Pathfinder, with what are essentially rock hard "all season" truck tires, for a couple of weeks. Sure, I drove it, and drove it through snow. It worked. It got me where I needed to be. And I drove carefully. But it didn't hold the road well, took forever to stop, and frankly had I been trying to avoid something, would have been pretty scary. I had trouble driving it up the slope of my plowed driveway up north. The Enterprise agent even told me "oh, this thing sucks in snow with those tires, but at least you have AWD." Thanks. I guess that Enterprise wants to keep the tires until the vehicle goes to auction, and still have some tread on them at that point. Makes sense for them. Their tire needs and mine aren't the same. Would that truck have been a better winter vehicle with different tires? Absolutely.

I think that matching tires to your vehicle, and the conditions, to give yourself the optimal set-up for safety, and drivability just makes sense. Clearly a personal decision. Cars are a lot different that they were 15 years ago, and so are tires. Tremendous options out there in snows and all-seasons. And they don't have to be expensive options.

I agree that you can make the case that nobody needs a winter tire, but you can't make the case that almost every car handles winter weather better with them. Big fan of winter tires. Just my $.02.

Granada,

What type of car?

I'm surprised at you!!! Yeah, I used to get everywhere in my 1987 Buick Grand National with non posi rear, but I was sweating when I got there and my knuckles were white. If it's snowing on the east coast, I'm driving to the mountains, many times before the plows touched the road. I'll take my AWD with dedicated snows, passing at 70mph in the unplowed lane with ease, every time.

Traction on ice is not assisted by non-studded snow tires. My view of winter tires is strongly affected by the fact the only time I am on snow is in winter when I drive into the mountains. I used to live at 4000 feet and we owned all 4WD vehicles with all-terrain tires, so saying we have not used snow tires since the 70s was not entirely accurate.

Driving in the East or even in the intermountain west is a completely different animal than here. Snow tires are generally not going to provide superior wear, or wet pavement traction. So good all-season tires in good conditions are what works best for me. If I lived where the sun doesn't shine all winter and the car can freeze to the street, I'd probably feel differently.

FWIW, it its not plowed here, you can't get there and the road will be closed.

This statement simply isn't true. The modern studless friction tires work very well on ice. I have studded Nokians on my SUV. I have Blizzak WS-60's on my VW GTI. I had Nokian Hakka Q's on my previous GTI. If you have a purpose-built studless ice tire with lots of siping and a soft compound, it works quite well on black ice. Studs are better but most people don't want their car to sound like farm equipment all winter.

AWD, real snow tires, and ground clearance matter in deep-unplowed snow. If you have a big hill to deal with that isn't well plowed/sanded or if you live at the end of a long dirt road, by all means drive something with a foot of ground clearance 4WD, and good tires. For most situations, a FWD car with Blizzaks or Nokians will work just fine.

d'oh forgot to mention that part.
It's a Mazda6i (FWD) I'm looking for 205/60/16 to put on my steel wheels.

Cirquerider, not to beat this dead horse, but there are a lot of independent tests, conducted in Europe and Scandanavia that pretty much refute your first sentence. Todays best snow tires have nearly identical performance on skid pads {iced ones}, braking tests, and acceleration as do studded snows. And they blow away any non-winter tires.

The general leader in these tests is the Nokian RSI, which performs almost as well as the Hakka studded models. The non-snow, but winter rated WR, also does pretty well. It's all about the compound in the rubber, and to a lesser degree the siping pattern cut into the tire. They are designed for ice, smooth hardpack, etc. The compound is that makes the things so expensive. It's also why you can't run them when it gets warm; they compound melts away.

As mentioned we have two Subies; one had brand new RSI's mounted last fall. The other had Hankook IPike's, which are a direct knock-off, the tread pattern is a carbon copy. A very good tire, with nearly identical construction.....other than the compound. They perform pretty much the exact same, other than on the smooth icy surface, the RSI is tremendous. The Hankook feels like a decent snow tire. If you didn't have a comparison, you'd think it was great. The Hankooks cost less than half of what the RSI's cost. We have a car with it's second set of Blizzaks which previously had studded snows. Until the compound wears down, they are pretty much as good on ice...without the dry pavement noise and lack of dry pavement performance. Much better mpg. I would say 90% as grippy as the Nokians, and probably a better tire overall for that vehicle. And much less costly than a Nokian model for it. Lastly, we have the S6 with the studded Hankook Ipikes. On ice, I would say that it's a touch better than the non-studded RSI. A touch, but in any other condition it's nowhere near as good. It gives away a ton in dry performance, but spends most of the winter on snow.

I am pretty sure that if you were to do your own comparison of the newer generation snow tires on ice, you'd come way feeling that they were a significant improvement over the tires of old. When I had those Hankooks studded, the service manager at the tire store couldn't remember the last time he had been asked to stud a set of snow tires, and actually tried to disuade me quite a bit. All based on the fact that the newer snows have made driving on ice so much safer.

I did a ton of looking a year ago in the summer and fall, as I was looking at replacing the tires on four cars before the winter, and should we stay with dedicated snows, summer or A/S tires for all four in the spring. Bad timing! I had been using studded snows, and people were telling me that there was no need with a couple of other newer tire options. Big advances in just 2-3 years. I thought hard about all seasons {WR's} on one of the Subies, and wanted to have all of the info to make what was the right decision for us. A lot of this test data was pretty eye-opening, at least for me. Equally impressive when we put them to use. Eye-popping with the RSI's in the bad stuff.

There are a lot of great options, and the tires be they A/S or snows just seem to be getting better.

I also "get it" based on your current driving. Makes sense to me.

I think Cirque has sufficiently proven he doesn't actually know what he's talking about in this case. Which is unusual.

Put me in the snow tire camp. Last season was my first time WORKING in the snow. That meant that staying home because the weather was bad was no longer an option. I started the season with all season tires on my Audi A4 (AWD). Caltrans was happy to wave me through any sort of checkpoint. I had 3 experiences which caused me to change to snow tires.

1) 2-3 mph, interstate 80, bumper to bumper traffic, _no chain controls active_. On the California side it was just starting to precipitate with mixed rain/snow on to previously plowed road surface. Caltrans was doing follow-me vehicles side by side to keep the speeds down (thank god). The traffic came to a stop (from 2-3 mph) and at slower than walking speed my car simply went half way off the road because it couldn't grip against the crown shape in the road. Wow! I'd never had an experience like that before.

2) My driveway in Tahoe City. I shoveled the driveway, my friend went to pull my car in, and he slid all the way back down the driveway backwards/sideways. More funny than anything else, but obviously the all season tires weren't getting any traction on the remaining layer of death frost.

3) 30+ mph [see all the comments about going SLOW in snow; 30mph is NOT SLOW ENOUGH even though everyone else is doing it] on highway 50 east of South Lake Tahoe. Wet heavy snow conditions again. Traffic just cruising along. Taking a nice mellow corner, almost no lateral acceleration whatsoever, and the back end just started to come around without any change in speed or turn shape. I was incredibly lucky in this instance and was able to counter steer to regain control. There is a very low success rate on this sort of maneuver, and I would not expect to pull it off with any sort of regularity.

After this trip I switched to Blizzak WS-60s on dedicated wheels. Probably not an appropriate tire due to wear rate and my 90/10 dry/snow driving mix, but after experience (3) I was taking no chances. This will be my second season on the blizzaks and I'll re-evaluate my decision based on wear rate when I am through the soft compound on these. I hope to at least make it through this full season on this set.

My commute from the bay area to Tahoe is almost exclusively on dry roads, but over the pass and once in Tahoe it can be pretty crazy during a storm cycle. Dedicated snow tires on dedicated wheels are one more level of protection to be layered on top of going slow, air bags, a properly maintained vehicle, extremely long following distance, driving during off peak hours, etc.

-Adam

Ugh, awful to have that happen in traffic as it destroys your options. If this happens to you in the future the best thing you can do is release the brakes and let those wheels roll slightly. ABS wheelspeed sensors often work down to very low speeds, but the controllers often give up anyways at 5mph or so. I've experienced this in the passenger seat sliding to the edge of an embankment in a driveway...not fun. Screaming "let go of the brake!" got me the desired result from the roommate and vehicle.

Anyone ever stop, get out, shut the door, and watch the car slide into a ditch? Had to call for a towstrap. Another time three guys moved a buddy's car across a shiny black parking lot to another spot...with the doors locked and the transmission in first. Both stories from my time in a place where supercooled rainfall is common.

For anyone who wants to move to a narrower (different aspect) snow tire without throwing off your odometer and speedometer readings, here's a handy tool

http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

Granada,

I've owned two sets of the Dunlop's. Great tire. I had them on a W8 Passat, and an Audi S6. Really great tires in the cold, and the dry. Feels a lot like a high end A/S in the dry. Exceptional in slushy stuff. I would have said great on ice until I get into Nokians. Never had an issue in deep snow, and felt comfortable. Probably not as great a deep snow tire as some others, but always worked for me. Got great wear out of them despite a lot of dry pavement driving. Both of those cars are heavy {4000 lbs} and full time AWD with a lot of torque.

Really impressed with that tire. Came close to buying a set last year for my Legacy GT.

I have a couple of sets of Hankook Ipikes. Diofferent tire. Not terribly impressed, but I think based on price, a good value. I had heard good things {same as the Nokian....}. I'm not buying another set, though.

No experience with the Yokohama's.

FWIW, I've found the sales guys at Tire Rack to be pretty helpful. Same with the on line tire reviews. You can sort by car, and by miles driven. Pretty good stuff.

That's actually exactly what I did. Milking the brakes gently on and off until things came to a stop straddling where the fog line would be if it hadn't been submersed in slush. The only reassuring thing is that if I'd hit something, there would have been no injuries due to the speeds involved.

-Adam

Your point about speed is excellent Adam. Injured pride is better than injured dead.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes....ilot+Alpin+PA3

If I go back to snow tires for next year, I'll pick these up.

Put my 3 season old PA2's back on last night and had a great drive to work today. Light rain, work has there own exit off the highway with a diving right hand bend at the bottom of the ramp which at the apex transitions to a up hill. I had the Legacy GT wagon in a nice 4 wheel power slide at 50mph on the exit of the bend.

These tires have been in all kinds of winter driving and my Audiphile friend with the, "I only buy Hakk's" mentality has been impressed the performance, during one of the winter storms driving to Stowe for ESA a few years back.

This is a no-brainer. If you are driving on ice or in snow you need SNOW tires, not all-season tires, and you need snow tires on all your wheels. BTW it's now the law in Quebec that you must have snow tires on your car in the winter.

Never mind comparing modern latest-generation studless snow tires with antiquated studded tires. Compare the best modern studded tires to the best non-studded tires.

1) Studded snow tires best choice, but maybe not wanted or maybe even not allowed in some places

2) Non-studded modern snow tires. The minimum you should even consider for winter driving.

3) All season tires - An oxymoron.

I can drive through the rain on bald tires with the cord showing through. In fact I did. That doesn't mean I should.

Now for a harder question. Am I an evil person for waiting until the tread depth reaches the wear bars on my snows before changing them?

Does that answer your question ?

You do know what time of year it is and what's coming...?

They have about 5/32nds now, wear bars are at 1/16 th. It should only be a problem on slush or in standing water. I can slow down for that.

Anybody else think snow tires should be changed at double the minimum legal tread depth?

More like triple, but I think that minimum depth by law (1/16th) should be doubled at a minimum.

(I note that you are one of the only people who reduces fractions in tread depths. It is amusing to look at state laws that don't.)

I like the hindsight answer. If you get stuck you should have changed them.

You obviously have degraded performance by that point... but can you get by? Probably. I'd leave them on and wear 'em to the bars next spring if you do.

The question at hand is not what works out west or in Canada, but in Philly and for occasional drives to Vermont. Here in the east roads are so heavily salted that snow tires take a real backseat for most drivers. Does Evansilver drive in snowstorms? Stay at the end of a steep hill or dirt road while in Vermont? If not, you can rachet down the tire needed.

If you're a powder hound and drive Roxbury Gap, you might want some good tires.

Sometimes its fun to be contrarian.
so many serious people...so little time.

C'mon now, don't you know the Internet Tire Threads are SRS BZNESS?

Last winter one of our instructors had new all-season tires on her Pathfinder, was in 4wd, hit a patch of ice, slid, hit the shoulder, and rolled & totaled it.

She'll get real winter tires--snowflake-on-mountain symbol--on her new 4Runner this year.

Any real winter tire is far safer than the best so-called all-season tire on ice or polished, glazed snow.

To size winter tires, either get the narrowest original equipment size listed for your car, or maybe a narrower tire of the same outside diameter and equal or greater weight carrying capacity than the original tires. The only time wide winter tires are recommended is when the snow depth is expected to be more than 110% percent of your under-car clearance--then you need flotation. Why narrower tires?...the same weight on fewer square inches of tire contact patch results in more pounds per square inch of pressure of the tire against the ice, therefor more grip.

Wow, great thread! One of the most experienced and informed I've seen, including on dedicated snow tires sites.

I have an Acura MDX and have snows mounted on a spare set of rims in the same size as stock tires. I was running Dunlop Winter Sports and they worked quite well. They were near the end of their life so I killed them off by running them all summer. I just replaced them with Michelin X-Ice:



I've only used them in the rain so far, but they were terrific in the wet. Hopefully they'll see some snow soon. I've heard great things about Nokian Hakkas, but they cost nearly double what the Michelins were so I figure I can justify using them up almost twice as quickly.

When I lived back east I had an Acura Integra with Blizzaks on steel rims, and a Nissan Quest Minivan with Blizzaks. Both kicked but in the snow with snow tires on.

I definitely endorse the idea of dedicated snows on their own rims. Your control in the snow and ice will be dramatically improved.

Maybe someone in the tire industry can answer this better, but my understanding is this.
It's not only the water shedding, but some tire manufacturers use different compounds on the same tire and when the tire wears to a certain point, their sticky compound is gone, and the more slippery base compound is left.
Also, how deep does the siping go? The sipe gives a tire it's stickyness also.
For me, the first time I feel any slippage, I buy new tires.

2-turn,
Some tires, Blizzak(sp), used to only have the sticky rubber on the outside. I'm not sure if they still do, but I didn't buy that tire for that reason. I prefer Higher performance tires in the summer, but I ended up putting my winter ones on early this year due to the fact that the summer ones wore out a little before end of season, and I couldn't find a good deal on decent tires in my size (225/70/15).

I will keep an eye on the sipes. Thanks for the tip. And as you point out, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, so when they stop working I'll get new ones for sure. Thanks for keeping it real.

Sinicure,
I have the Latitude X-ice now, replaced the Michlin arctic Alpin. That arctic Alpin was the first tire that wasn't actually a lot skinier than my summer rubber. Also the first tire that actually was able to float on deeper snow. Floating is a lot trickier than plowing, especially when you end up doinga combination of both. It's always hard to decide if more torque will get you more speed or dig a hole.

The size of my old alpin was 225/75/15. The Latitude is 235/75/15. Standard stock size on my door is 225/75/15. I noticed when I switched to the Latitudes, that I gained a little forward traction in snow and ice, but lost a little side-to-side traction, so I have to slow more for that corner at the bottom of the hill, but can still make it up. I think I prefer to have more side-to-side traction though.

I will keep an eye on the sipes. Thanks for the tip.

I'm thinking my next snows will modern studs. What are the laws on studs in northern Ontario Canada?

http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GONE...=&lang=_e.html

Yay!

the use of (4) snow tires has just become law around here. I always used them anyway, I wouldn't drive in the winter without them though, it makes a HUGE difference. I was due for new ones so i just bought and put them on 2 days ago. There's nothing like 4 brand new snow tires.

Also very helpfull to to get up ski mountain roads.

Since many of us here drive Subarus here is what I would do for your second set of wheels. Go to Nasioc http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/ and look for some OEM wheels for sale (or post WTB). Most of the youngsters their don't like there wheels and need to buy some BBSs or whatever (Gotta have some rims yo!) You can pick up a nice set for cheap. They may come with tires too and if you buy in the spring you can run the tires they came with and buy some winters in the fall. Make sure you check up on the seller first though, they call out scammers quickly on the forum.

I was going to do this but then found some BBSs and made my stock wheels my winters. I became "one of them" I guess :-)

I was tempted to go with high perf summer tires for summer for maximum fun but then got realistic and am going with all season for spring/summer/fall and snows for winter.