Time for the annual snow tire thread

Another +1 for having dedicated rims and snow tires for every car in the house. And dont forget to -Size them when you are buying them
I just purchased a set of new Dunlop Winter Sport 3D snows on aftermarket alloy rims with TPMS sensors for my little Astra a day ago.
What I spent on buying the sensors with the tires, I saved by not having to pay for mounting and balancing them. Even with the freight, I saved over buying them locally.
When they hit the door in a week or so, I'll spend a little time in the driveway putting them on.
A small price for driving safety and piece of mind.
Mike

Mike

I'm running Blizzak WS-60's on cheap alloys at the moment on my VW GTI. I went with a Tire Rack setup with TPMS. My previous GTI ran Nokian Hakka Q's on some used VW steel wheels. My SUV runs studded Nokian Hakka SUVs on some lightly used stock rims I found on eBay.

The WS-60 has less road noise than the Hakka Q did. Snow and ice performance is comparable. I got 25K+ miles out of my Hakka Q's. I doubt I'll see anything like that on the Blizzak WS-60's.

The studded Hakka SUVs on my SUV make the thing drive like farm equipment but it certainly behaves well on black ice. With stock tires, the thing is white knuckle going down hills and cornering. No wonder you see so many SUVs upside-down in the median strip during every snow storm. It's a real false sense of security. As long as you don't need to brake or corner, you feel invincible in an SUV on snow.

Caveat:
A competent snow driver can get around just fine in a RWD car with summer tires. The snow tires and AWD give you added safety margin. If you can afford them, by all means spend the money.

Using the same Dunlop Winter Sport M3 tires on my 335xi that I used last winter. They aren't dedicated snow tires, but those combined with all wheel drive, my biggest concern is actually plowing in the snow, not getting traction.

I have chains as a secondary option, but only used them once. All wheel drive and a manual gearbox do wonders in bad weather!

My research brought me to Nokian WR G2's which are technically All Season tires, but with a HUGE bias towards snow. Cost me a bit under $800 installed.

I put my third set of Nokian WR's on my 2000 Honda CR-V last October. The two previous sets lasted about 40,000 miles. They could have been stretched further, but not if I wanted enough tread depth to work effectively in the snow. I live in Schenectady, NY and have a cabin in the Adirondacks, so I basically go looking for trouble in the snow. 4WD and an effective SNOW tire (not just an M+S all-season, which indicates nothing about snow performance) are essential. I can't say enough good things about this tire. They can be left on all year round with no significant trade-offs, something you can't do with a dedicated snow tire, e.g., Bridgestone Blizzak, which will evaporate before your eyes when it's warm and there's no snow on the ground. And they are absolutely superb in the snow. We also put a set on my wife's '99 Lexus ES300, and she's amazed at how well they performed in all conditions, especially the extreme snow storms we get in the Adirondacks.

Nokian has replaced (or is replacing) the WR with the WR-G2. Nokian claims that they will never replace an existing line unless they are satisfied that the replacement exceeds the performance of the one they're replacing.

BTW, one of the earliest and most thorough reviews I read on the WR was at http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/hl/nokian.htm

Get dedicated snow tires and mount them on their own rims. Rims are not that expensive plus you risk damaging your tires by mounting and unmounting them twice a year.

Nokian Hakkapeliittas are very good snow tires. So are Bridgestone Blizzaks. I run Blizzaks on my car, and my wife has Hakkapeliittas on hers. There are no doubt other very good snow tires, but I can speak highly of both of these. Blizzaks are cheaper. Hakkapeliittas last longer.

Do not settle for "all season" tires. I mistakenly bought a set of Nokian WR all season tires for my last car. These are not snow tires by any stretch of the imagination, despite the salesman swearing that the performance in snow was similar to the hakkapeliittas. It's not.

BTW, studded tires may offer less traction than a good winter tire.
For instance in this review the studded tire performed worse than three unstudded snowtires.


www.tirerack.com is a great way to shop for and buy tires.

That's a good, fair review. Note the closing graph:


The Nokian WR is not a snow tire. It doesn't perform as well as a snow tire. If you buy them thinking you've bought a snow tire, you're mistaken. I drove on a set for four winters, and while they worked, I was disappointed in them compared to real snow tires. I wouldn't buy them again.

My recent experience confirms this, but I'd hesitate to put much faith in that Tire Rack test. I'd trust that data implicitly the second I start driving around skating rinks at 10mph.

I'm curious to find out how other people are doing wrt treadwear with the various tires...particularly people who live at low altitude in warm states and do a lot of Interstate miles.

Spongworthy, I have been recommending that tire, the WR to friends for a while.

I will look into the WR-G2 next spring.

I agree Tire Rack is an excellent site and has a lot of good information. I did find a better deal including shipping at

www.DiscountTires.com

Dunlop Wintersport 3D. The Best.

Firestone winter UV??

Anyone tried these? They appear to have a pretty aggressive tread pattern, a proper snow tire and well priced

Interesting thread. And not unlike some on most car forums this time of year. Here's how I approach this. I look at the most severe weather that I will drive through, as well as the "normal" weather, and then factor in whether I'll "have to go" in the worst. Living in Philly, and driving to VT puts you in all sorts of weather. But, you're also dealing for the most part with fairly decent snow removal, I think.

I live north of Boston, ski at Sugarloaf, have one in school in far, far upstate NY, and one in school in Vermont. I drive 35K miles a year, and my wife drives about 25K. Kids drive less. We drive through some really lousy weather.

We run Blizzaks on our Landcruiser. They go on at Thanskgiving, and come off around April 1st. We've had the car for 150K miles, and I've learned that 60+ degree weather eats the Blizzaks. Once you wear through the soft compound and siping, they're compromised. The stock Michelin tires that are OEM wear like iron, and are adequate for the chance early season snow. They're fine in the cold, too.

We have an Audi S6. We run summer tires {Potenza RE750's} and flip to studded Hankook Ipike's in the winter. The summer tires are like rocks when it drops below 40 degrees, and can't be driven in the snow. Would be terrifying. With the winter set-up, it's a tank. Those tires are a knock-off of the Nokian RSI. Compound is not as good. Wear has been fine. Noise with the studs in horrific. That car doesn't move if it's cold and snowy in the fall. That's the compromise on that one. In the winter, it can go anywhere, safely. I would not drive that car to Sugarloaf on a late October weekend with the summer tires, but I'd drive it anywhere in the winter. We need to remember what's on there for tires when it's dry, though. Not a tire for real "spirited" driving. This car spends most of the winter up north. I think those tires are a decent value, but I'll probably go with RSI's {non studded} next time.

2005 Legacy GT {which is probably most like your Lexus} was a challenge. I would love to have real summer tires on it. But, I need something that will work in the late fall, and early spring, when we can still get hit with snow or cold. My compromise is a high performance all season, Potenza RE960AS, which has a summer bias. Does 90% of what I would ideally have summer tire do, great in the rain, fine in the cold, and adequate in some snow. November 1, I mount a set of Nokian RSI's {no studs}. They are without question the best snow tire that I have ever had, and like others I've had them all. I've been driving performance AWD cars for 20+ years. They are overkill in the Boston area for all but a couple of storms, but when I get to Sugarloaf, and "have to go", they are tremendous. So far, very good wear over one season. I have had plenty of people suggest that I really ought to have three sets of tires and rims for this car and the S6. Ahh....Nope. The RE960's in the summers work for me. The RSI's are the best, but IMO probably overkill.

We also have a 2002 Subie H6 Outback. We run Bridgestone G019 Grids for the spring, summer, and fall. They're actually a pretty decent AS in the snow, but I decided to try a pair of Hankooks {no studs} last winter. Once they were scrubbed, and the side walls softened a bit, they were really a very good tire. Not as good as the RSI, but half the price. I think they were pretty much the same in terms of performance, other than on real hardpack, and ice. I will go with the tire the SkiMangoJazz has next time, and run them year-round. Nokian WR G2. If I time this right, the Grids and snows will need replacing at the same time. IMO, the best tire going for a Subie Outback is the WR G2. My brother just put them on a brand new 3.0R Outback. He loves them after 3-4K miles. He's coming out of a 4.2 Allroad.

All of these snow tires are mounted on dedicated rims, alloys which we scrounged at various places. All are a size narrower and taller than the OEM summer tires.

Now having said all that, before the LGT, I had a VW Passat wagon, with the W8 engine. Before that a Volvo V70R wagon. I ran the Dunlop M3 series on those cars, and they were great winter tires for me. I felt that I didn't lose much of anything in the dry. They were perfect mid week in Boston. They were perfect on a dry or slightly snowy or icy highway. They were quiet, for a snow. In slush, and wet snow, they were very good. In the heaviest snow, they were not as great as the Blizzak and Nokian's, but they were still fine. I never had any problems over about 8-9 winters. Being careful with tire pressure, they wore really well. I got 30K+ out of them; probably could have pushed for another season, but didn't. It was a toss-up for me between them and the RSI's for the LGT. Depending on the need, next time it might be back to the Dunlop.

The Dunlop might be a great tire for you and your car. Might cover all of your needs. Tire Rack sells some nice looking, perfectly OK alloys for great prices, too. About $100, versus $55 for steel for 16" rims. A touch more for 17". I think that you can do the whole deal for under $1K, and save a lot of mounting and balancing charges....and also save your rims from getting beat up in the process. Would be a great set-up on a great car!

Sorry to be so long winded....I agonize over this stuff. But your tires are the only thing that holds your car to the road. Good luck.

I got caught one October in snow on my PZero Rossos. I had been away and got back to the airport to find snow in Burlington. 25 mph on the interstate was terrifying. AWD meant nothing, I could barely go straight let alone turn, stop, or slow-down. I now switch my summer tires over pretty early and stay on them until I know the snow isn't coming back.

Speaking of snow tires, in the winter I do 95% of my driving on a clear freeway, but then 5% on snow on the mountain. I use chains on all four tires (wire cable chains with aluminum sleeves on the drive surface).

These are a pain to get on because you have to lay out the chains and then drive over them, and then close them around the tire. (Unless someone knows an easier way).

I was wondering what are your recommendations for chains that are easier to install? Is there such a thing?

Thanks

Dave

p.s. Found a link to the type of chains I have:

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/1...s._004.350.jpg

Muleski

Very good post. I too am not convinced we all need didicated snows. You also did a nice review on the tires I've been looking at over the years. I'd like to add my Michilen MXV4's were great all season tires. I ran them for almost 12 winters on different cars. FWD and AWD.

epic, I too got caught with my summer onlys. Light dusting, I backed out of the driveway, let the clutch out at idle and the AWD went sliding down the crown of the road. Turned around in the next driveway and limped back home and hoped in the Suburban.

I'm not at low altitude, but do a lot of interstate miles down to Denver and back (180 mile R/T to the airport) where the roads are often clear and Denver may be fairly warm.

Got a set of Blizzak WS-50 mounted on rimes from Tire Rack, for the Jetta in Jan 2005. Had them on Jan-April 05, Oct 05-April 06, Oct 06-June 07 (including 1800 miles bringing that car to Raleigh NC without swapping them for the summer tires till I got there - yeah, I know, stupid.) About 4-5000 miles for each of those seasons, so maybe about 15K on them with probably about 2/3 of it on pavement, and the other third of it on snow/ice where I'm really glad I had them. At this point they are worn almost down to the snow tread wear bars (not to the overall tread wear bars). I can probably get through one more winter season with them with that driving pattern.

I'm either mounting them on the Jetta (which is back in Dillon) this weekend or I'm driving the Jetta back to Raleigh next week on the summer tires (Dunlop Sport D60 alleged all-season but heavily summer biased). In that case I'll drive the GMC AWD back the next weekend to Colorado, and put the Blizzak DM-Z3 Light Truck snows back onto the van which I bought for it last December. Did about 5000 miles on them last winter including about 1500 of it down and back to Denver, and no significant visible wear on them yet. Made a stunning improvement in braking on hardpack, which was the prime reason I finally got snows for that 2-ton boat.

Blizzaks are notably soft. Both sets hold really nicely on hardpack snow and ice patches, and made a world of difference. But if there's a lot of highway driving involved, I'd suggest something less soft and more of a traditional snow tire compound. I can get around it and get a few years out of each by having two cars, and now one of them in the other location. If I lived down in Denver and commuted up to the mountains every weekend I'd probably go with a less soft snow tire.

Edit: I used to run Pirelli snows (I forget the exact model) on my old Passat when I lived in Boston and skied regularly in ME, NH, VT. Not hydrophilic/soft like the Blizzaks, but held up pretty well and were still decent in snow, way better than regular all-season. A performance-oriented snow like that could be a good choice.

I think that a couple of these recent posts hit the nail on the head. The "best" true snow tires have a very soft compound. IMO, the Nokian's for whatever reason wear the best of the soft compound snows. They are also the most expensive.

Summer tires can't suck enough in the cold, and in anything that is cold and slippery. I had a 1989 BMW 325ix that was a tremendous car with the skinny studded snows mounted, but I had the most terrifying ride of my life coming home from the hardware store in a brief October snow squall up in VT with the summer tires. NO SUMMER TIRES IN THE COLD!

There's a wide horizon of good AS tires with some winter bias. Depending on where you live, and on your car, one of them might be a great solution. Some AS tires are really like summer tires, though.

And in the snow tire category, some, like the Dunlop, really behave like an AS, yet yield decent snow performance. They may not be the ultimate "pure" snow tire, but they are more versatile. There are other choices as well.

If you drive in a city out of the snow belt, and commute to ski country on highways that are generally well plowed, your winter tire choice will be a lot different than if if spend a lot of time on snow or ice covered roads....or if like me you unfortunately find yourself in horrific weather. I don't live up north, but I need a tire as if I did.

My choice is snows, with the best tread and compound mix. Maybe studs. However, I give up the tire wear, and in most instances real dry performance. I take the exit ramps slower, leave more room to brake and in general drive in a more restrained way. The rise in gas prices has also helped, as the cars with the turbos get a lot better mileage when they are out of boost!

It's kind of like fishing, and "matching the hatch" with the right fly. Try to learn as much about these variables and options as you can, pick the best fit for you and your car{s}, and understand the limitations.

And although it goes without saying, don't cheap out. Be safe. The right tire will make a huge difference.

Thanks for the detailed info Mark. I was getting more like ~7500-10000 miles out of WS-50s with them beyond the middle in spots and noticeably lower in performance by March/April storms. Lots of ~350 mile round trips at ~70mph on predominantly dry roads. Throw in a couple trips to SLC and CO and I guess you have your one-season snow tire. Love the tires though, can't wait to live someplace where I won't feel like I'm wasting a WS-60.

Check out Arctic Claw. Doing my 3rd winter on them - very quiet on dry pavement. Reasonably priced. Extremely effective on my accord wagon. Great tire.

To get the M+S rating, an AS tire just needs a 34% void ratio in the tread. In other words, more space in the treads than a summer tire. OTOH, a snow tire that has the severe winter service rating (the snowflake over the mountain peaks) actually has to perform in winter conditions. I've had M+S tires that looked good, but sucked in the snow, and others that were great in the snow, but felt like they were covered in grease on wet roads or in warm conditions. It's a crap shoot. The Nokian WR is a tire that I can leave on my car year-round, get 40,000 miles before the tread is a bit too shallow for snow, and doesn't feel greasy in warm or wet conditions. No dedicated snow tire can do that.

Not every car you put snow tires on will turn into a snow cat. You can't expect miracles with a RWD Mustang or BMW. Even some FWD cars will disappoint. I put dedicated Michelin snows (Pilot Alpins??) on my wife's Ford Focus, and she bitched about them every snow day.

I used to have two sets of tires for my Camry and my wife's Integra (she's been through a lot of cars). The Michelin Artic Alpins were incredible in the snow, but they whistled on wet roads and wore down quickly on dry roads. As you might expect, the diminished dry road performance was noticeable. Living in upstate New York, and looking for trouble in the snow as skiers do, a large percentage of my winter driving is still on roads that are not covered in snow and ice, so I always wonder if I'm "wasting" the snow tires when they're not needed. Having 2 sets of tires on their own rims worked quite well for me for a good number of years, but having one set of tires that covers all the bases more than adequately is even better.

With tires, everything is a compromise. The Nokian WR strikes the right balance on that compromise and they've never let me down. I'm hoping that the new WR G2's that I'm about to put on my Hyundai Tucson will be even better.

I use whatever OEM all-seaosn or equivalent tires that came on the car or their all-seasons replacement. FWIW, I have always stayed on the road and using this approach I have done everything from trans-sierra commutes and interstate winter travel through the intermountain states (California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming) to snowplowing (with chains). I have not done snow tire / summer tire changes since the 1970s.

There are a lot of people that bought one pair of all mountain skis and are quite happy with them. I suspect many posters in this thread aren't in that group.

One of my long drives through intermountainia last year was during a big storm cycle in a wee little car with new, crappy all season tires. The drive would have been a lot more fun with new all seasons with the mountain icon, and more fun still with real snow tires.

Good point, but results count. My tires have never been a limiting factor in winter driving for me. Off-road is another matter, and I still got by better than the guys on monster 4x4 tires, deflated for traction and other idiocy. Traction, control. anticipation reaction,and experiece are more driver skills and tires are not a substitute. My tires were never the wrong tires, they just weren't the ideal ones. Considering all other limits on the road, and alternate strategies to deal with it, tires never made a difference to me. Skis were the same story until the wide-bodies made pow and crud so ridiculously easy. IMO, they haven't made that tire yet. With AWD, traction and stability control and computer controlled ABS brakes, tires are important, but not decisive anymore.

I agree, I'm not convinced most of us need snow tires. This Subaru is the first car I have had snowtires on since my Plymouth Duster day's in the early 80's. When these Michelin Pilot Alpins PA2's wear out next spring, I think I'm going to buy a good all season tire like I used to, Michelin MXV4's or what ever takes there place.

Run them for a few years and make sure I replace them before winter a few years out.

If you haven't made the switch since the 70's how valid can your opinion on the subject be?

I switched to studded snows years ago after 3 spins/slides on ice that either took me off the road after several 360's or into the opposing lane. In all cases I was way under the limit and just caught a patch of ice wrong. Fortunately no ouches !!!Adding to that was having to dig my way free after a deep dump. Last winter I witnessed a fatal accident when a truck several cars ahead of me, driving approx 30 in a 40 zone , slid on ice and was broadsided by a large garbage truck. Since switching (4 studded Nokian Hakkapeliitta's on a 1998 Durango). I have had significantly better snow/ice performance then with the all seasons I used to run. As I drive 10K miles in the winter in north western NY and Vermont snows, I prefer to supplement my winter driving skills with 4 dedicated snows. I usually get 3 winters (30K miles) on the Nokians and the "studded" noise factor on dry roads is minimal. Also, dry/wet road performance has been very acceptible. I have 4 studded snows on my wife's Grand Cherokee and she/I both appreciate the added performance/safety factor.

IMOP - dedicated snows are the only way to go if snowy driving is a regular part of your winter life.

Falcon_O aka Charlie

I found that the Nokian WR All-season were very much a limiting factor. I got stuck in places where the Hakkepelitta would not. At the time we had two nearly identical cars, one with the WRs and the others with the Hakkepelitta II's. The WR car would get stuck going in or out of our driveway, the other wouldn't.

Real Snow Tires. Accept no substitute. Nokian WR's are not snow tires, no matter what the marketing hype says.

All of these modern "fixes" are totally dependent on available traction. Pure winter tires provide more of it. These things are not substitutes for traction. And it's not just about "not getting stuck". It's about safely driving in whatever might happen around you. Cornering, braking and car balance all come in to play.

Another vote for Blizzaks. Volvo S60R + LM25's was a perfect combination. I ran Goodyear Ultragrip Ice tires on a Volvo S80 a few years ago and they were good too.

If you live in a snow/ice climate, snow/ice tires make a world of difference.