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Knee Binding ???

#61
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This is a great idea, glad to see someone out there is trying to push binding design past the old toe sideways/heel up. OTOH I have cost-benefit reservations. I've been doing some research on incidence of various types of knee injuries since another thread exchange.

So far, remarkably hard to pin down reliable data on actual on-slope odds risk ratios (compared to hospital admissions, or to surgeries, both of which are biased samples). But it's unclear to me that the specific type of ACL injury this (may) uniquely protect against is all that common. Yes, catastrophic, yes, well inked by the media, and yes, very interesting to orthopedists who have to operate, or to those who get cut on. But to epidemiologists who worry about the whole population at risk, vastly smaller problem than injuries due to twisting falls that include some heel lift. Yes?
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#62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
So far, remarkably hard to pin down reliable data on actual on-slope odds risk ratios (compared to hospital admissions, or to surgeries, both of which are biased samples). But it's unclear to me that the specific type of ACL injury this (may) uniquely protect against is all that common. Yes, catastrophic, yes, well inked by the media, and yes, very interesting to orthopedists who have to operate, or to those who get cut on. But to epidemiologists who worry about the whole population at risk, vastly smaller problem than injuries due to twisting falls that include some heel lift. Yes?
I still see a clear market to those skiers whose legs represent a large life asset. The pro athletes and female TV personalities of the world. Can this binding allow them to ski or reduce their insurance premiums? If so,

Now on Mondays.

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#63
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mmm Does anyone know if there are going to be any distributors soon in the UK ?

Although reasonable for people to ask for quantified numbers re "real delivered safety": clearly we'll all have to come back in 5 years; assuming the data are collected. In the meantime; the development process can only be aplauded; bringing together the experience; inclination, commerciality and analytical analysis must have produced a "safer" binding than exists currently; as it adresses a fundamentally different form of injury, that current bindings do not even attempt to adress: As with all things; I'm sure it can and will be improved in years to come; but in the meantime; I would perceive this as a fantastic "discontinuous jump upwards" on the graph of reduced risk of major injury when skiing. Well done. And I'd like some please!

Just because something will never be the "best possible" or eliminate all risk; doesn't mean it isn't something worth applauding: it is the nature of risk that it is a slippery beast. I'm sure there still can be bizare accidents that will result in ACL damage: not withstanding this device will obviously prevent he result of some falls that would have resulted in ACL damage.

The statistics will shift again: something else wil appear as the next "biggest risk" after a fall: life is inherently risky: and some risks bindings can't help with (e.g. hitting trees): so people who use these bindings sadly I'm sure will still get injured; but that doesn't decry improving the risk profile of skiing with these bindings is a wonderful thing.

A good friend had dreadful knee damage 18 months ago from a skiing accident-- trying to get up after falling over, and still sliding at quite high speed: and a few weeks back; was told by her doctors that the only solution after several operations is an artifical knee. Ooo. Not good. I so don't want to go there myself.


So.. where in the UK would I go to please ?

And good luck with the designers next projects-whoever he works for.
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#64
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I'm looking at the KneeBinding site. It claims 9mm of delta as a feature. That's an awful lot. Does anybody know if for some reason that massive amount of delta is needed for it to work?
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#65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
I'm looking at the KneeBinding site. It claims 9mm of delta as a feature. That's an awful lot. Does anybody know if for some reason that massive amount of delta is needed for it to work?
I just measured w/ a caliper and I get 35.5mm at the toe and 46mm at the heel for a difference of 10.5......Wow!....I hadn't measured that. On the website do they mention why it is so high?


I'm testing them out right now before writing a review. I've been on them about 5 - 7 days. I may remount the toe with a plexi plate and try the binding with a reduced delta for comparison sake.

Only problem encountered was I lost the right heel AFD (teflon plate for boot heel contact). Quick stop at Pinnacle and they repaired and then a stop at the factory and they gave me a bunch of replacements in case they should come off in the future. They said possible glue problem......nothing major at the heel........Toe AFD's are more critical and have been fine thus far.

Bindings have been flawless so far in a variety of conditions. Only one major wipeout. Feet did not get tweaked thus bindings didn't need to release. Brakes needed some teflon bike lube to loosen them up a bit, they are fine now. No pre-release issues thus far. At this point I trust them and feel confident enough with them to start some minor hucking......just awaiting more deep pow and warmer temps......
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#66
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Dr. Rick Howell says <<"are your knees worth an additional $200 dollars beyond ordinary bindings">>

 

Respectfully, this is a straw-man argument. Nobody suggested a person's knees aren't worth an additional $200. If that's the basis for pricing this product then it should cost thousands of dollars instead of just $499.

 

The point is that the intermediate skiier can't justify spending $500 on a pair of bindings, and therefore these bindings currently are priced beyond the reach of most consumers in the market.

 

This is unfortunate because intermediate level skiers -- particularly casual 6-times a year skiers -- dominate the skiing community. If Knee Bindings are all Dr. Howell claims they are, then everyone should be using them. That means they should be affordable enough to mount to every rental ski, and to every beginner's and intermediate ski package -- not just high-priced "expert" skis. If and when this invention becomes licensed and adopted by major manufacturers for virtually all bindings at all price points, it should serve to bring more skiers into the community by virtue of increasing safety.

 

Dr. Howell might reasonably state that a skier who won't scrape up $500 for a pair of Knee Bindings deserves an ACL injury. (He didn't say this but it's sort of implied by saying 'Are your knees worth $200 extra?') This line of thinking also suggests that the skier who can't afford $500 bindings can't afford to go skiing. Perhaps that's a fair statement ... but for us working stiffs, it stinks of elitism. Already the alpine skiing community is pretty exclusive -- i.e., poor people can't afford it. Pricing what _might_ be a revolutionary safety feature beyond the price of most skiers is sort of making seat belts so expensive they're only available in luxury cars. It's like saying only wealthy skiers and seriously committed enthusaists deserve safety from ACL injuries.

 

Having said all that I understand the profit motive and I sincerely wish Dr. Howell and the Knee Binding folks godspeed at bringing this product to the mass market.

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#67
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I jotted down my positive experience after 19 days on these bindings, here:

 

http://www.epicski.com/products/kneebinding-knee-friendly-binding/reviews#73

 

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#68
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OK, About this "left and right" ski thing, and uneven edge wear we see skiing rocks and ice in the east..

 

Is it possible/easy to switch the bindings between skis?

 

Enquiring minds want to know....

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#69
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Deleted per court order.


Edited by rick howell - 4/2/2009 at 09:40 pm
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#70
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I blew my ACL last year. My demo skis had bindings that did not release. I place no blame on them and chalk it up as part of the risk of skiing. I am interested in the KneeBinding. Rick, can you, or anyone tell me this...

 

1. Does the toe release up.?

2. Does the heel release sideways?

 

Thanks

"For me skiing has always been about what I feel as opposed to what I think..." Hilary Lindh

"A setback is just a setup for a comeback" Errol Kerr
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#71
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Deleted per court order.


Edited by rick howell - 4/2/2009 at 09:41 pm
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#72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick howell View Post

 

Hi Snowfan,

Last year, you cannot "blame" your old "ordinary" bindings because that was the existing paradigm at that time.  This situation is similar to when cars had no air bags -- and it was "accepted" that you might sustain a head injury even if you were wearing a seatbelt.  Today, all cars have air bags and the bar has now been raised regarding the level of protection that you might come to expect with the utilization of the combination of a seatbelt plus an airbag.  Once these bindings are up to specification, you should not "chalk-up" a skiing knee injury as part of skiing.  Another example is closer to home for me:  people "expected" to be hassled by their toe straps and slotted sole cleats during bicycling back in 1980.  Most people did not even complain about the hassle because there was no other way.  Then, I invented hands-off clipless pedals -- and the level of expectation about what one should experience in their foot-to-pedal connection, changed. 

 

To answer your questions, directly:  Pure vertical toe release will address the BIAD-injury mode of skiing-ACL injuries, which mode contributes to approximately 15% to 20% of all skiing-ACL injuries.  Tilting toe release has little (if any) effect on skiing knee injuries -- as has been proven by the near-100% proliferation of toes with tilting features while the incidence of skiing-ACL injuries INCREASED (that does not mean there is a cause-and-effect between these 2 aspects.....because there is another factor that caused that increase....but it also does not mean that tilting toe features reduce skiing-ACL injuries).  This increase in skiing knee injuries during the proliferation of tilting toe features is why all "ordinary" binding companies have specifically disclaimed in their consumer literature that tilting toe features have no effect on reducing the chance of knee injuries.

 

KneeBinding has 7-degrees of tilt in order to comfortably pass the "ordinary" binding lab tests (a small amount of tilt helps ordinary binding release-performance).

 

2.  Yes, the heel releases sideways -- and this is the major feature that mitigates ACL injuries, especially Phantom Foot induced skiing ACL injuries.  The release is asymmetric to mitigate pre-release, because Phantom Foot injuries include abduction-movement (inward-movement) of the heel, not adduction (outward-movement) -- thus by not releasing in the outward lateral heel direction, the chance of pre-release is cut in half.  The binding also has 3 other patented anti-prerelease features to mitigate lateral heel pre-release.

 

 


 

Rick, Thanks for the informative reply. In short, if I understand correctly, the toe of the KneeBinding releases up, at a 7 degree angle, both left and right. Why not straight up ? The heel releases sideways to the inside, not outside...thus a left and right dedicated ski/binding.  Please correct me where I err and thanks again for your participation in this thread. 

 

"For me skiing has always been about what I feel as opposed to what I think..." Hilary Lindh

"A setback is just a setup for a comeback" Errol Kerr
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#73
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Deleted per court order.


Edited by rick howell - 4/2/2009 at 09:42 pm
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#74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick howell View Post

 


 

 (( PPS -- many bindings from 20 years ago are far better than bindings being sold, today.  This is a well known fact quietly shared by many ski binding researchers who test binding performance.))   As long as I have said all of this, I should also add that 35-years ago there were many bindings with pure vertical toe release (none had "independent adjustability") .... including Cubco, Spademan, Besser, Gertsch, Head, Americana, Eckl, .... but all failed because they had massive pre-release no matter how high you cranked the settings (which cranking defeated key lateral toe release of because each of these bindings had vertical toe release cross-linked (coupled) with lateral toe release.  So not only did they pre-release, but they also had poor lateral toe release because they had to be cranked in order to attempt to mitigate pre-release.  That's pure failure.  All of those bindings failed, big time .... though Spandeman had many interesting virtues that I might discuss in this fourm another day (plus Rich Spademan, MD, is a great man -- who by the way was run-over by people that still today wrongly dominate US ski binding standardization).

 

Rick,

 

I realize that much of your energy is currently being directed at your latest project, the Kneebinding.

 

But if/when time permits I would be greatly interested in hearing your thoughts on some of what you alluded too above. I have long maintained that when the "plastic era" began in the 1980's many of the major players bindings went downhill fast and by the 90's many were pure junk. I was/am a huge fan of the Look Nevada series right up till the plastic 99's were sprung. The n77's are perhaps my all time favorite bindings to this day. Built from the best materials available, truly a premium product and I was more than happy to pay for it.

 

So let's hear an insiders view on the haydays of real binding engineering, the good the bad and the ugly.

I think many here would be interested in this unique opportunity to hear "the rest of the story".

 

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#75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick howell View Post

 

Snowfan,

Yes.  You are correct.

 

Re your question about why KneeBinding does not have pure vertical toe release:  Pls see the paper that loaded into this thread, above.  Further, I was the Product Manager of Geze Ski Binding Company in 1981 (and I had been in this position for 3 previous years) when we introduced the Geze SE3 -- the world's first independently adjustable (pure) vertical toe release binding.  This bindng was a classic masterpiece of Stuttgart-Germany-engineering .... and it was the long-standing brainchild of Dr-Ing. Peter Bierman, as it had been in R&D for 8-years (and Geze had more engineers than all other binding companies combined).  You should see this binding some day (ask your local ski shop about it).  It was truly amazing.  However, because there is very little elastic-defection in the rear-spoiler of ski boots and because the afterbody of skis are typically more rigid than the forebody of skis ..... the impact energy that is transferred into all toe pieces in the upward direction is quite large.  Therefore, a binding with vertical toe release must have extensive anti-pre-release properties (remember, release settings should not be the sole-aspect that provides retention -- and the signature of a good binding is one that can be aggressivly skied at low-settings).  We knew that this binding had to have exceptional vertical toe retention characteristics in order to overcome the super high loads that are transferred into it.  That is the main reason it was in R&D for so long.... as we tweaked and tweaked the retention characteristics of this binding.  We even positioned this binding (from a marketing perspective) for smooth recreational skiers.  However, it still pre-released too much because it was not always possible to insure that any given skier who used it would be "smooth".  It was also heavy and ugly.   It failed, and 2 years later when I was at that time the Director of Marketing at Geze, I was the one who sadly pulled the plug on it because there were just too many reports of dangerous pre-release.  As a footnote, many of the leading skiing safety experts, world-wide, still ski on this binding (even though it is log off the schedule of indemnified products) -- because many of them are highly accomplished skiers now in their late-sixties, mid-seventies who ski as smooth as silk and this binding is "just right" for their needs. (( PPS -- many bindings from 20 years ago are far better than bindings being sold, today.  This is a well known fact quietly shared by many ski binding researchers who test binding performance.))   As long as I have said all of this, I should also add that 35-years ago there were many bindings with pure vertical toe release (none had "independent adjustability") .... including Cubco, Spademan, Besser, Gertsch, Head, Americana, Eckl, .... but all failed because they had massive pre-release no matter how high you cranked the settings (which cranking defeated key lateral toe release of because each of these bindings had vertical toe release cross-linked (coupled) with lateral toe release.  So not only did they pre-release, but they also had poor lateral toe release because they had to be cranked in order to attempt to mitigate pre-release.  That's pure failure.  All of those bindings failed, big time .... though Spandeman had many interesting virtues that I might discuss in this fourm another day (plus Rich Spademan, MD, is a great man -- who by the way was run-over by people that still today wrongly dominate US ski binding standardization).

 

Vertical toe release addresses the BIAD knee injury mechanism (Boot Induced Anterior Drawer) which injury mechanism accounts for approx 15 to 20 % of all skiing knee injuries (though there is disagreement among epidemologists regarding this range of prevalence).  

 

Because of (1) the difficulty in developing a binding that has pure vertical toe release (so that it does not pre-release) combined with (2) the fact that the BIAD-mode is not the dominant skiing knee injury mode (the Phantom Foot mechanism is by far the dominant mode), pure vertical toe release is a mode of release that excapes practical application at this time.

 

Snowfan, pls take a peek at the research paper that I posted earlier in this thread....and I hope you enjoy seeing a considerable amount of information that might further clarify your good questions.


Rick, thanks again for your in-depth replys. I will review your other posts for further understanding.

 

I too would enjoy you starting a thread regarding what Smash alludes to.  

"For me skiing has always been about what I feel as opposed to what I think..." Hilary Lindh

"A setback is just a setup for a comeback" Errol Kerr
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#76
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Deleted per court order.


Edited by rick howell - 4/2/2009 at 09:43 pm
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#77
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#78
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I suspect we will see Rick avail himself of the Edit button based on this most recent article in the Stowe Reporter

 

Quote:

Ski-binding lawsuit ends in settlement, finding of contempt

 

 

By Tom Kearney

Published:

A settlement has been reached in a nasty business dispute involving two Stowe residents and a Stowe company, KneeBinding Inc.

Richard J. Howell, who invented a ski binding designed to minimize knee injuries, parted ways with the company last year, then went on a campaign blasting the product and the investors who now own most of the business.

“We had no choice but to do the one thing a company can do when faced with this kind of attack: We took him to court,” said John Springer-Miller, who bought 57 percent of KneeBinding last year.

Under the settlement, Howell agreed to a permanent ban on criticizing KneeBinding, its products, or John and Tina Springer-Miller. Further, he must make strong efforts to recall statements he’s posted on Internet sites and material posted on YouTube.


Howell agreed that he was in contempt of a preliminary court order, banning KneeBinding criticisms until a hearing could be held, and understood that he could be fined. Howell posted more criticisms on the Internet, and picketed at Lamoille Superior Court, both in violation of the court order, Judge Gregory Rainville wrote in a decision issued Tuesday.

Rainville fined Howell $7,000 for contempt, but said he won’t have to pay it if he complies fully with the court order until at least Sept. 15.

In addition, if Howell complies with the order, he can again receive severance payments from KneeBinding, which were to total $80,000 over 12 months.

Strains and tears of the anterior cruciate ligament in the knee are the most frequent injury in skiing. KneeBinding says ski injuries account for more than $1 billion a year in health-care costs, and nearly one of four skiers who injures an ACL never returns to the slopes.

KneeBinding says conventional bindings can’t detect or respond to the specific forces that cause most ACL injuries in skiing, but its binding does.

“This product has the potential to save lots and lots of knees. It’s really important,” Springer-Miller said. “In a world where 70,000 skiers hurt their knees every year, one small company is trying to make a difference.”


However, Howell’s criticisms were hurting prospective sales of the new binding, the lawsuit alleged.

“Rick Howell has made many false, damaging statements,” Springer-Miller said after the court order was issued Tuesday. “He has been unable to substantiate any of what he has said about the company, its product or its people. Many of his statements are absurd.

“We have been unable to convince him to put his energies elsewhere,” which left no alternative to filing a lawsuit, Springer-Miller said.

Howell said the settlement provides “the means to restore severance benefits and — on March 2, 2010 — become free of a non-compete and non-solicitation agreement with the company.”

Howell said he remains a significant shareholder and a member of the board of directors of KneeBinding, but is no longer an officer of the company’s daily operations.

“This outcome allows the parties to avoid litigation at this time and to move forward with their respective points of business focus,” Howell said. Howell said he will concentrate on developing new products with other competing companies.

Howell is president and CEO of Howell Product Development, which works on development of high-end sports products, including normal-looking eyewear that displays time; cross-country skiing equipment for open water; and new footwear that increases soccer-kick efficiency.

 

Its almost here.

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#79
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See, this is why after say one hour NO further editing of a post should be allowed.

 

I for one am very glad Rick was able to talk about HIS binding design and it's subsequent undoing under

the control of others whose motives are very suspect. I have not had my hands on a pair of these current production pieces with the cheap fixes that do not follow the original design, nor do I wish too. I can find Look PX15's for around $200....enough said

 

Rick, if you are still out there, I hope in the future you will take the time to talk about some of the older designs and 'best of' from your personal experience and long history in this field. Good luck with getting your design back under your control and getting a first rate product to the market when it's actually ready.

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#80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post

 

Rick, if you are still out there, I hope in the future you will take the time to talk about some of the older designs and 'best of' from your personal experience and long history in this field.

As Rick stated earlier in this thread and I also heard from an employee of Carl Ettlinger's directly, the Spademan binding was the safest design to date.
 

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#81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post

 


 

As Rick stated earlier in this thread and I also heard from an employee of Carl Ettlinger's directly, the Spademan binding was the safest design to date.
 

 

Rick did NOT say that at all. Re-read the quote on this page from him.

 

What this does have me thinking about is just how screwed up the US court system is. Now while this is clearly not Epics fight, we have lost some good information from a creditable source. Gone.

 

I guess we'll have to do a better job quoting things in the future so they can not be deleted by the original poster.....and YES I do have contempt for this type of crap from big brother

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#82
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Knee Binding Review.

                                                               

Me:

150 lbs.

5’-7”

Masters ski racer

Mechanical engineer

 

I tore my ACL tendon 4 years ago.  I had it repaired with a patella tendon graft 2 years ago.  I have been waiting for the Knee Binding as it seamed like cheap insurance.

 

I had them mounted in January 2009 to a pair of Stockli GS skis.  My first impression was that they clamped the ski to the boot more rigidly than other bindings.  At first this was un-nerving as they seemed much less forgiving, but I soon became used to the feeling.

 

The first time skiing, I lost all 4 anti-skid pads because I was taking the skis off each run to ride the Keystone gondola at night. The Company has not come up with a fix for this yet, but they have changed the heal so that the anti-skid pocket is now filled in with regular plastic.

 

My second time skiing I was hit from behind by a snowboarder (who didn’t bother to stop) and knocked me out of one ski.  That binding twisted past its normal limits and slightly damaged the plastic housing.  (Would not have had damage if it was aluminum)

 

Other than that I had no falls and no pre-releases while skiing on the binding.  I am able to twist or pop out of the binding in all release modes when they are set to a DIN one setting lower than I usually ski.

 

Overall I like the bindings and will continue to use them.  If they come out with an aluminum binding with better anti-skid pads I will probably buy several more pair.

 

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#83
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they look awesome i have osgood shubldjaldfkac,mn- i dont even know how to pronounce  it -in my knees.  they look safe its to bad the lowest price i could find on them is around 300$ i wonder how much  an acl surgerey is
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#84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FB User (Private) View Post

they look awesome i have osgood shubldjaldfkac,mn- i dont even know how to pronounce  it -in my knees.  they look safe its to bad the lowest price i could find on them is around 300$ i wonder how much  an acl surgerey is

Osgood Schlatter's disease?  There is no binding that will help you with that -- the only thing that really helps OSD is growing up.
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