Do rebound exist in short turn?

#1

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8/8/08 at 9:34pm

carver_hk
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Just curious. Because carving turn obviously bend the skis significantly. Rebound can be easily seen as come from the bended skis. In short turns it doesn't look very bended. I figure that it is very possible to get some bending due to the underfoot pressure compressing the snow underneath. So the question is where else can we get rebound in short turns. And is resultant rebound significant to be useful in short turn? Thanks in advance for any contribution.

#2

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8/9/08 at 2:50am

dwanjr
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I would say that there is a rebound force in short turns. It is probably even more important in short turns than it is long turns as you would require a larger force (rebound) in order to exit the turn and get from edge to edge in a shorter amount of time. Therefore, I would say that rebound would be quite useful in short turns as the more rebound you have the less force you have to apply to pull your feet back out of the turn to get in to the new turn. Hope this helps, any one feel free to correct me on any of this.

#3

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8/9/08 at 7:02am

Pete No. Idaho
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Rebound short turns

Heck Yes, you can rebound them right off the snow if you want to. Don't know if this meets new skiing tactics but pressure the tails coming out of a turn and you can rebound them quite a bit. Like I said don't know if this is ok with the new gurus but it sure is fun.

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#4

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8/9/08 at 7:09am

BushwackerinPA
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Quote:

Originally Posted by carver_hk

Just curious. Because carving turn obviously bend the skis significantly. Rebound can be easily seen as come from the bended skis. In short turns it doesn't look very bended. I figure that it is very possible to get some bending due to the underfoot pressure compressing the snow underneath. So the question is where else can we get rebound in short turns. And is resultant rebound significant to be useful in short turn? Thanks in advance for any contribution.

it should looks just as bended in a short turn if your good enough. The rebound in a short turns is what makes quick in the fall line short turns possiable.

"its not that you cant ski the bumps, its that you cant ski and the bumps prove it"

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#5

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8/9/08 at 8:50am

slider
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho

Heck Yes, you can rebound them right off the snow if you want to. Don't know if this meets new skiing tactics but pressure the tails coming out of a turn and you can rebound them quite a bit. Like I said don't know if this is ok with the new gurus but it sure is fun.

That's what I'm talking about.

#6

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8/9/08 at 9:14am

Snowmiser
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It's not only fun, but a great workout on the legs! You get to the bottom of the hill and you can definatly "Feel the Burn"!

#7

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8/9/08 at 10:04am

Mac
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Depends on how you use the skis. People that tend to pivot and steer their turns in a wider, more equally weighted stance don't get much rebound out of the skis because they don't bend very much. They also don't get a lot of high edge angles, because it's harder to pivot a highly edged ski. If there's equal weight on each ski, there isn't enough weight on either one to make them bend. So logic would dictate that a turn started by an early weight shift to the outside ski along with a strong tipping action will generate a highly edged, strongly loaded and bent outside ski that takes full advantage of the skis built in turning design that will generate the most rebound when the ski is released to start the next turn.

#8

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8/9/08 at 1:13pm

Pete No. Idaho
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Rebound

Quote:

Originally Posted by slider

That's what I'm talking about.

The only ski I could not do this with was a pair of VO Slaloms K2, Mahre ski's. They were so stiff I could bend as hard as I could and they were still straight - no rebound at all and darn it I though they'd make me a Slalom killer. Oh Well.

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#9

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8/9/08 at 5:33pm

Uncle Louie
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac

So logic would dictate that a turn started by an early weight shift to the outside ski along with a strong tipping action will generate a highly edged, strongly loaded and bent outside ski that takes full advantage of the skis built in turning design that will generate the most rebound when the ski is released to start the next turn.

huh?

#10

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8/9/08 at 5:59pm

Ghost
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho

The only ski I could not do this with was a pair of VO Slaloms K2, Mahre ski's. They were so stiff I could bend as hard as I could and they were still straight - no rebound at all and darn it I though they'd make me a Slalom killer. Oh Well.

At my weight 165 lbs, I have to slam old slalom skis into moguls doing about 25 to 30 mph to really bend them. Lot's of fun, but a real work out for the legs.

#11

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8/9/08 at 6:57pm

HKSkier
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Will a 'pure' carved short turn (since it is slicing through the snow) be more difficult to get a good rebound than 'non-carved' short turns?

#12

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8/10/08 at 7:01am

carver_hk
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Thank you for all the reply. It seems most people think short turn does involve rebound. But where does the rebound come from?

Probably I shall clarify that short turn in this thread means non-carving short turn. That is not short carving turn and not brushed carving turns. So with non-carving short turn the tip or tail is not engage how come we have any significant bending and therefore rebound? I tends to think that what give short turns a quick changeover is momentum rather than rebound.

HKSkier - I think there are always rebound in pure short carving turns. The challenge is how to make use of the rebound.

#13

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8/10/08 at 7:13am

T-Square
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How do you do a short radius turn without bending your skis? Anytime you place a ski on edge its going to bend. A ski is not going to change direction of movement without being placed on edge.

None of us is as smart as all of us.

#14

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8/10/08 at 7:57am

HKSkier
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Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Square

How do you do a short radius turn without bending your skis? Anytime you place a ski on edge its going to bend. A ski is not going to change direction of movement without being placed on edge.

This is a very simple and good answer. I think Carver_hk feels that you need to have a carved short turn to have rebound.

My question again -- am I correct to say that a 'pure' carved short turn will not produce as strong a rebound as a non-carved short turn (everything else being equal, eg the amount of bend).

#15

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8/10/08 at 8:05am

Ghost
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HK, I'm not sure what kind of a turn you are talking about; if it is not carved and it is not brushed, what is it?

You can have part of the ski carving while the other part is not, and when playing with rebound this often happens.

Let's not forget that the virtual bump can add quite a bit to the sensation of rebound.

#16

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8/10/08 at 8:06am

carver_hk
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Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Square

How do you do a short radius turn without bending your skis? Anytime you place a ski on edge its going to bend. A ski is not going to change direction of movement without being placed on edge.

I am sure there will be some bending but its significance in helping to turn.

#17

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8/10/08 at 8:08am

HKSkier
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost

HK, I'm not sure what kind of a turn you are talking about; if it is not carved and it is not brushed, what is it?

You can have part of the ski carving while the other part is not, and when playing with rebound this often happens.

Let's not forget that the virtual bump can add quite a bit to the sensation of rebound.

I am talking about 'pure' carved vs. brushed. I believe Carver thinks that if it is not carved there will not be significant bending and thus, less rebound.

#18

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8/10/08 at 8:16am

Pete No. Idaho
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Rebound

If you load up the tails, you can rebound a little, med. or a lot depends on how much you load them (pressure). Sometimes I rebound too much and it will throw me out of rythmn, sorta fun though. The turn is also nice to have in your bag of tricks, sometimes it comes in real handy when in unpredictable terrain. Mostly I just use on a Blue when I want to feel the "pop" and have some fun doing short radius turns in the fall line.

You won't live long enough to make all your own mistakes - learn from others.

#19

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8/10/08 at 8:16am

carver_hk
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost

HK, I'm not sure what kind of a turn you are talking about; if it is not carved and it is not brushed, what is it?

I believe brushed carve like BPST is actually carving by the fall line. Both tip and tail have gripping there so one can bend the skis. But there are turns that either the tip or tail have no gripping. If you try to bend the skis the presure release from the non-gripping side. So one can not get significant bending. That's what I am thinking.

#20

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8/10/08 at 9:10am

Rick
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The amount of rebound depends on the amount of energy stored in the ski. If carving, the more you tip the more the ski bends and the sharper/shorter it turns, and the more rebound energy you put into the ski which gets released at the end of the turn. How much that rebound energy acts to launch/lighten the skier depends on how they transition. Do they attempt to use the energy, or do they attempt to squelch it and stay connected to the snow. Both are options that can be done. When attempting to use it you can even intensify it by administering an aggressive push down just prior to release.

When not carving, rebound energy falls. The skis are at lower edge angles, theres less bend, the speeds are lower, and rebound is thus muted. Not so if pivoting into a carve. Less so if pivot/steering into a bottom of the turn momentary carve engagement. It's all about how much the ski is bent and loaded just prior to release. The top of the turn does not paint the picture like the bottom does.

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#21

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8/10/08 at 1:16pm

Pete No. Idaho
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Rebound

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The amount of rebound depends on the amount of energy stored in the ski. If carving, the more you tip the more the ski bends and the sharper/shorter it turns, and the more rebound energy you put into the ski which gets released at the end of the turn. How much that rebound energy acts to launch/lighten the skier depends on how they transition. Do they attempt to use the energy, or do they attempt to squelch it and stay connected to the snow. Both are options that can be done. When attempting to use it you can even intensify it by administering an aggressive push down just prior to release.

When not carving, rebound energy falls. The skis are at lower edge angles, theres less bend, the speeds are lower, and rebound is thus muted. Not so if pivoting into a carve. Less so if pivot/steering into a bottom of the turn momentary carve engagement. It's all about how much the ski is bent and loaded just prior to release. The top of the turn does not paint the picture like the bottom does.

Thats it!!!!!

You won't live long enough to make all your own mistakes - learn from others.

#22

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8/10/08 at 5:06pm

justanotherskipro
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Actually, Carving isn't the only way to load the skis and create rebound. A hard checking maneuver will cause it as well. The old slalom skis were known for their pop. Back then a racer would spend more time in the air than they do now. It also happens in the bumps and uneven terrain all the time. Two reasons for it.

The elasticity of the skis that are trying to return to their original shape after being bent into "reverse camber".
The force pushing up through the skis from the snow itself.

Like Rick pointed out the skier needs to choose how to deal with it. Absorb it so you don't get launched, or use it to hop over a rock, hop off of a bump, or by redirecting it you can deflect off the top of the bumps (just ski the tops of the moguls), etc...
From the skiers perspective it feels like bouncing on a trampoline. A fun maneuver that has become a lost art thanks to the new skis.

#23

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8/10/08 at 7:03pm

carver_hk
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Thanks JASP & Rick.

#24

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8/11/08 at 5:33am

HKSkier
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The amount of rebound depends on the amount of energy stored in the ski. If carving, the more you tip the more the ski bends and the sharper/shorter it turns, and the more rebound energy you put into the ski which gets released at the end of the turn. How much that rebound energy acts to launch/lighten the skier depends on how they transition. Do they attempt to use the energy, or do they attempt to squelch it and stay connected to the snow. Both are options that can be done. When attempting to use it you can even intensify it by administering an aggressive push down just prior to release.

When not carving, rebound energy falls. The skis are at lower edge angles, theres less bend, the speeds are lower, and rebound is thus muted. Not so if pivoting into a carve. Less so if pivot/steering into a bottom of the turn momentary carve engagement. It's all about how much the ski is bent and loaded just prior to release. The top of the turn does not paint the picture like the bottom does.

Rick,

Please elaborate on these 2 points you made as pertaining to the sentence before that:

1) Not so if pivoting into a carve

2) Less so if pivot/steering into a bottom of the turn momentary carve engagement

Thanks.

#25

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8/11/08 at 9:38am

Rick
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Quote:

Originally Posted by HKSkier

Rick,

Please elaborate on these 2 points you made as pertaining to the sentence before that:

1) Not so if pivoting into a carve

2) Less so if pivot/steering into a bottom of the turn momentary carve engagement

Thanks.

Yeah, that could have been better written. Sometimes KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) just leaves it Stupid.

The "not so" and "less so" referred to rebound energy falling as it does in a pure steered turn.

In a turn that pivots directly into a carve, if it's done well, little speed is lost and strong ski bend and energy is taken into the bottom/end of the turn. Rebound energy does not drop off.

In a steered or pivot entry steered turn that contains just a breif carve engagement at the end of the turn, speed can reduced significantly, depending on the nature of the steering being done. A drop in speed reduces the ski loading forces present in the turn, and thus the potential rebound at the end of the turn.

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#26

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8/11/08 at 9:44am

Rick
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Also something to remember in this is the effect of the virtual bump. It adds to the perceived sensation of rebound as you go through a transition. The sharper the turn, the bigger the virtual bump.

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#27

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8/11/08 at 3:12pm

HKSkier
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

In a turn that pivots directly into a carve, if it's done well, little speed is lost and strong ski bend and energy is taken into the bottom/end of the turn. Rebound energy does not drop off.

In a steered or pivot entry steered turn that contains just a breif carve engagement at the end of the turn, speed can reduced significantly, depending on the nature of the steering being done. A drop in speed reduces the ski loading forces present in the turn, and thus the potential rebound at the end of the turn.

Thanks

#28

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8/11/08 at 7:11pm

Pete No. Idaho
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Rebound

Rick and HK Yes you're right ! Now I will think about it when I do it, that will take all the POP and fun out of rebounding. Gad I've done that for 30 years and didn't know I was actually doing all that stuff - well maybe I wasn't actually. But I could sure feel the rebound (except on those K2 VO Slaloms - a mighty stiff ski).

You won't live long enough to make all your own mistakes - learn from others.

#29

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10/28/09 at 9:54am

muja2
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No-one mentioned how loading up the shovel part of a ski at the start of a turn affects the mechanics. Other than making the turn radius smaller, can the stored energy be used the same way as what you get from the other movements mentioned above?

#30

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10/28/09 at 12:46pm

LiquidFeet
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Is there a difference in the way a shaped ski will perform short-swing turns with edge-set? Will the rebound effect from the "check" be different from what a straight ski would provide?

In other words, will the same skier get the same rebound from a shaped ski doing this type of turn as with a straight ski? Or does the carving function of the shaped ski change things significantly?

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