Watea 84 = fresh legs..im72 = tired/fried legs...Why the difference...?

#1

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1/23/08 at 1:25pm

rspacher
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Why would one set of skis leave a persons legs fairly fresh and the other tired and fried...

I have skied the same runs and in the same conditions with the im72's after 15 - 20 runs my legs are pretty darn tired...the run is about 1000 vertical feet...
I demoed the Watea 84's this past weekend...same number of runs, same ski area, my legs were no where near as tired...

The Watea's were much higher in performance and much easier to ski...

This surprised me a lot, the im72's are a forgiving and easy to ski, I was always worried about trying skis that were much for my ability, i thought the higher performing ski would be much more demanding and tire my legs out faster...go figure...

I cant wait for the Watea's I ordered from Dawg to arrive...should be here soon, hopefully they will let me ski when the lift opens until it closes...

#2

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1/23/08 at 1:31pm

comprex
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Not enough information:

Are you making more turns with the im72's?

Are you making more front-to-back balancing corrections with the im72's?
(an obvious reason would be that the Wateas are longer, never mind all the binding etc. geometry details)

Are you making more lateral stability corrections (roll direction) because the im72's are easier for difficult snow to tip against where you want them?

anticooler than you

#3

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1/23/08 at 1:56pm

rspacher
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More turns...I don't think so...skied them the same...

Front-to-back balancing...you just might have something on that one...I found the Watea's much easier to stay centered on...rarely got in the backseat on those...

Lateral stability corrections, don't know about that one...

All I know is they were so much better, easier and fun to ski on, I ordered a pair from Dawg Monday morning...

#4

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1/23/08 at 2:11pm

Bob Peters
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Quote:

Originally Posted by rspacher

All I know is they were so much better, easier and fun to ski on, I ordered a pair from Dawg Monday morning...

That's why we demo.

I really believe there are subtle but significant distinctions in how different skis ski. My balance points and turn generation are different from yours, etc.

I love demoing skis and I've had the exact same experience as you several times in going from one ski to another under essentially the same conditions. I don't spend any time trying to figure it out... I just rule out the ski that doesn't feel good to me and move on to the next one.

It sounds like you made the perfect choice for your skiing.

Bob Peters Jackson Hole, WY
North40 Realty
Me on twitter - http://twitter.com/bobpetersjh

#5

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1/23/08 at 3:51pm

rspacher
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Thanks for the reply..

After seeing your pics on the trip report thread...

My family and I must make a trip to Jackson Hole one day...

#6

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1/23/08 at 8:20pm

beyond
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I'd guess that a) you were scarving, which is easier on a wider ski, and b) you were skiing fairly soft chop/crud, which is easier on a wider ski. But whatever, good choice.

#7

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1/23/08 at 9:18pm

comprex
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Quote:

Originally Posted by rspacher

Lateral stability corrections, don't know about that one...

Yeah, trying to thing of a good threshold for skier input vs. terrain input, where IS Physicsman when you need him?

anticooler than you

#8

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1/24/08 at 6:53pm

mrzinwin
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I have done a lot of experimenting with ski demos and for me, it has everything to do with ramp angle. Bindings that have too high a ramp angle (eg. rossignol/look) put me off balance and I have to use my leg muscles to compensate. My quads are burning after just a short run. Personally, tyrolias have just the right amount of ramp angle for me--and my legs are great all day. I find the weight of the ski also has an effect---heavier skis tend to be more work.

I also have the head im72. They're not the lightest skis but they're not really all that heavy either. But I think it comes down to balance. I'm not sure what kind of bindings the watea has--marker maybe??? Maybe you're just in better balance with marker bindings and so your leg muscles don't have to work as hard. It's a shame we can't demo different skis with the same binding setup.

#9

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1/24/08 at 7:23pm

Ghost
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The Watea's have a longer turn radius. I bet you were actually skiing them faster with bigger turns, which is easier on the legs.

#10

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1/24/08 at 8:54pm

rspacher
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The heads felt much heavier than the fishers...
The fishers felt very light on the snow, very lively...
The heads are very solid, I guess that is what you would call damp feeling...
Maybe too damp compared to the fishers...
Just might have to try some RX8's on the future...

#11

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1/24/08 at 8:56pm

rspacher
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I don't think I was making bigger turns...
I felt I could make any size turn I wanted to with those skis...
Sold me on the spot after just a few runs..the difference was that much...
Non the less I was skiing faster, better, smoother and with much more confidence...

#12

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1/24/08 at 9:10pm

samurai
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And... the most obvious answer is---

wax.

(or- lack thereof on the pair that was exhausting.)

People rarely believe it, but fast skis are easier than sticky skis.

#13

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1/25/08 at 12:28am

MTT
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Quote:

Originally Posted by mrzinwin

I have done a lot of experimenting with ski demos and for me, it has everything to do with ramp angle. Bindings that have too high a ramp angle (eg. rossignol/look) put me off balance and I have to use my leg muscles to compensate. My quads are burning after just a short run. Personally, tyrolias have just the right amount of ramp angle for me--and my legs are great all day. I find the weight of the ski also has an effect---heavier skis tend to be more work.

I also have the head im72. They're not the lightest skis but they're not really all that heavy either. But I think it comes down to balance. I'm not sure what kind of bindings the watea has--marker maybe??? Maybe you're just in better balance with marker bindings and so your leg muscles don't have to work as hard. It's a shame we can't demo different skis with the same binding setup.

Interesting point.

I made the observation a few weeks ago @ Alta.
I was skiing 194 LP's with Look P-12's Solomon Gun Boots.
I am in terrible shape.
Skiing fast fall line in chopped up powder my legs felt great
Skiing aggressive on groomers back to the bottom I felt OK but getting a bit stressed over time.

On the flat hanging onto the rope tow to get back to Collins
MY LEGS Quads mostly begain to FRY!! It almost brought tears!!

I concluded that I am not in a position to balance when standing on flat ground

:

No way in hell I would change anything. If I were balanced when basically motionless on flat ground I would not be in the perfect position when I am actually skiing the terrain I usually ski.

It would be hard to convince me otherwise

:

#14

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1/25/08 at 7:28am

Blue Ox
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How long was each ski, respectively?

For me, the difference often relates to fore-aft balancing and/or ability of each ski to charge through crud, etc. but YMMV...

I also like the ramp angle hypothesis. I'm pretty sensitive to that as well.

#15

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1/25/08 at 8:24am

skugrud
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Two other variables to consider.

The issue could be --- the same turns with different skis. I do not really know those skis, but you might have to work one pair harder to make the turn than the other pair. If you let the ski follow their natural arc they may take the same "work"

The issue also could be snow conditions -- were they they the same both days? Even if both days were groomed, one might have been harder and the other softer. That would translate into a difference in the amount of muscle control and tension needed to hold an edge.

#16

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1/25/08 at 11:24am

Ghost
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Two other possibilities spring to mind.
If you know how to use your skis and you were making longer turns than the monsters were capable of arcing at the required angle for maintaining a balance between centripetal force and gravity at the speed you were going, then you would have been skidding on the monsters, skidding is always more taxing than arcing.

If you are less skilled then it could simply have been easier to fight the wateas than the monsters.

#17

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2/2/08 at 5:35pm

squawbomber
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Location: Berkeley, CA
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Quote:

Originally Posted by mrzinwin

I have done a lot of experimenting with ski demos and for me, it has everything to do with ramp angle. Bindings that have too high a ramp angle (eg. rossignol/look) put me off balance and I have to use my leg muscles to compensate. My quads are burning after just a short run. Personally, tyrolias have just the right amount of ramp angle for me--and my legs are great all day. I find the weight of the ski also has an effect---heavier skis tend to be more work.

I also have the head im72. They're not the lightest skis but they're not really all that heavy either. But I think it comes down to balance. I'm not sure what kind of bindings the watea has--marker maybe??? Maybe you're just in better balance with marker bindings and so your leg muscles don't have to work as hard. It's a shame we can't demo different skis with the same binding setup.

I agree 100%. Ramp angle is key. Luckily, there is a great company that is working with ski shops to "balance" skiers on their skis. It's called Biostance. Check out Biostance.com for a list of shops using this. They also work with canting too of course.
Being balanced will change your ski experience and make everything easier.
Give it a try.

#18

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10/22/09 at 2:49pm

squawbomber
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Location: Berkeley, CA
Post Count: 170

I know this is an old thread, and maybe no one will see this.
The problem is you were IN BETTER BALANCE ON ONE SKI, AND WORSE BALANCE ON THE OTHER. Likely the bindings have very different ramp angles. This has a tremendous effect on your stance and skiing. The best balances in the business, in my opinion, are done by the Biostance method. You can get in balance, and feel better all the time, on any ski. I suggest you check out biostance.com, and find a biostance shop in your area.
I have no affiliation with them, but know their product/philosophy well, and it will improve your skiing.
Cheers.

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