Need recomendation for GS skis

My son's a J2 this year, and is required to have the "stock" skis. He's #2 or so in his age group on his team, weighs under 120#, 5-8, long distance runner, varsity. #1 just got World Cup Rossignols, swimmer's build, 5-10, 140#, having a lot of trouble with them as being too stiff. And he's been skiing Rossi WC SLs. Race stock GS for men is 180cm/ 21m.

My son has skied on my Atomic Sx11's, 180cm/ 18m, and thought that they worked for him. These are supposedly a stiff ski, but I like them, and I'm 5-11/ 160#.

We were hoping to demo skis last weekend, but the weather did not cooperate and there was not enough snow to make the drive up. Last year he demo'd 4 or 5 pairs of SL skis and fell in love with Dynastar's. They seem to have a lot of flex yet torsionally stable. They have an odd profile that allows him to load the tail and snap out of a turn. He even skied powder out west last year: Ore Bucket at Breck, and East Wall at A-Basin. The wife of the GM is very small and skied the woman's version last year as well. Race stock SL for men is 165cm/ 11m.

One of the are coach's rec'd Heads or Vokl. I've heard that these are typically stiff.

Any recommendations?

Went through this same issue a few years back. By "stock" I assume that you mean that he has to be on USSA/FIS legal skis?

There are a lot of "issues" on this and I guess as he is the ... heck all of your ##### symbols .. it was a little confusing.

If he is a "contender" it sounds like there is enforcement of the rule; is that correct?

That said, Blizzard made a legal ski that was actually the long womans GS and had a bit softer flex than the mens GS ... less metal in it.

My son used them and liked them, but switched over to Fischer .. he gained weight .... and they were passed on to another light weight who loved them and used them the next few seasons.

Contact .... Dawgcatching ... he posts here, he managed to find me a used pair at a very reasonable price.

Just FYI ... those regs change again for the next season so used may be the way to go at this point.

1. Sorry for the confusion and the symbols: #2 means "number 2" as in "he's typically second place in his team"; 120# means "120 pounds".
2. He races in the Southern Alpine Racing Association league; they are part of USSA. SARA enforces the rules which are currently listed on page 135 of the 2008 Alpine Competition Guide, for FIS and USSA. Typically there's an official checking the skis when the kids line up at the gate, and if you don't have the right equipment you don't race, regardless of you ability to podium.
3. Current rules are 180cm long minimum; 21m radius minimum; 60mm minimum waist.
4. Yeah the rules may change next year. They seem to change every year or two. If they do and he needs a new set then I get the hand-me-downs, as the edges on my Atomic SX11's are wearing thin!
5. Cost isn't a big deal as the local shops here typically give a "team discount" of up to 45%.
6. Neither of us has been impressed with Fischer. He demo'd a pair last year. As viewed from a gate-keep position they seem to chatter more than most.
7. I'll keep the Blizzards in mind but I had a pair in the 70's that delaminated so I have a bad taste for those.

I'm not sure wht the post below has the quote broken up like that. I tried to edit it three times but quote and unquote kept getting inserted. Weird.

Volkl sounds like your ticket. You are right that Head runs stiff BTW - but Volkls are soft (great women's ski).

I'd recommend a 180 Racertiger GS mounted up with the Marker WC Piston plate (pretty soft plate). This will put your radius over the 23m range for this season (radius will not be enforced this season at the USSA level), and all skis must be greater than 180cm. Another option is to try the Elan GSX - also known for being soft. I think those come in a 182, and are perhaps slightly more technically demanding than the Volkls would be (can be punnishing of poor or non-precise movements). I haven't skied the newer Blizzard stuff (most really like it a lot) but their somewhat older skis were very beefy. Without trying them, I wouldn't recommend them - although plenty here have skied the new 182 GS ski and loved it. Dawgcatching (an EpicSki sponsor/shop) is a lighter skier and really seemed to like the ski.

What are his points? This would give us an idea of what he can handle, and what level he is at.

I suspect the older kid on his team is having trouble with the Rossi's if he opted for the 185cm Rossi. I hear they stiffened that up a lot. It used to be a noodle, but in the last season or two Rossi has really beefed up their race skis a lot (starting with the SL then did the GS a season later). IMO - Fischers will probably be too stiff. The reason you see them chatter so much is that few racers can bend them to keep them on the snow. They do have incredible edgehold though, and the slalom skis are the quickest in the business I think.

Later

Greg

HEAD GS very stable at speed, I love em.

Thats because they flex similar to a steel I-beam. A 120 lb kid is going to get taken for a ride on a ski that stiff.

I just looked at our calander and the first SARA race is in 8 days. We're going to need to make a decision soon. Its not a points race so they might not be enforcing the rules.

Our favorite shop sells the Vokl so that may be the ticket. His sister (110#) has a pair that I bought last year, supposedly their best all-mountain, and she loves them. My wife (120#) tried them as well and loved them, but bought a less expensive pair of Heads (wild thang).

The Vokl site shows the 180 length with a side cut of 104-67-87. That's a big shovel. His SL Dynastars have a big shovel as well. His coach had indicated that we should look for this, as it will help hin initiate a turn easier.

My son's not good enough to worry about racking points. Maybe next year, when he's a little bigger and in te second year of J-2. He's started skiing when he was 10. Two years ago at the Championships he was about 2/3 down in the field. Last year he above the 50th percentile, and had one run that was in the top 10% or so, but he didn't match it on his second. He's bettered himself relative to the field in cross country this year, made varsity, so I expect him to be in the top 1/3 or or so.

The "older kid" is the same age. He's just a bigger kid, swimmers build, and has been skiing a lot longer. He's probably in the top 25% or so relative to the leauge. His Rossis are 180's as I recall.

The reason I wanted to be sure is that a #2 slot on his team, in many areas unless he was a podium contender, would not result in a protest.

If indeed they are checking ... as they say .... "It is, what it is!"

Enforcement is spotty.

I discussed this with his coach this morning and he confirmed that they would be enforcing the rules.

I also discussed this with #1, specifically his 181cm/23m World Cup Rossignols. The World Cup rules are different than FIS/ USSA, longer skis and longer radius.

Got a deal on a used set of Head GS 180/21 and went for it. $325.:

There's a lot of confusion out there with the rules. World cup is 185/27. We looked at a pair of Dynastars, supposedly race stock GS, 182/24. Weird.

182/24 conforms to women's rules...

USSA is not enforcing the 27m rule anywhere this year. Next season they will be enforcing a 180cm length rule as is done now and the 27m radius rule.

Well we're back at it again. My son isn't happy with the Head GS skis we boughtlast season. He flies on them during free ski, but they are too stiff for the tight GS gates that we have around here. He has not gained weight since last year (in spite of 3 egg breakfasts most days, every other day reps with the Perfect Pushup, and several cases of Movie Theater Butter popcorn) and is still hovering around 120#. At the SARA Championships last season I did an informal inspection and about 1/2 the kids did not have regulation skis. I just came back from a race yesterday and one kid ran SL skis on a scored GS.

He's got great form but due to his weight he's not going to be a podium finisher. We talked about the possible switch to FIS rules that USSA has been threatening for a while now and he basically said that he's not going to compete if he has to ski 27M skis.

I can't blame him, so I told him that we should get a pair of skis with a 175-180 length, mid-width of about 67 or so and a radius of in the 15-18M range, and as soft a flex as we can find.

I would be well-pleased with any recomendations.

...Told you not to buy the Heads...

Don't buy Blizzards either - too stiff as well (saw that up there in a post from last year).

If you're hell bent to stick with Head, there is always the i.Supershape Speed in a 177... but that is a boat-load of ski as well. You can also look into the Stockli Laser Cross Pro in a 177, the Fischer WC RC in a 175, or the "cheater" GS skis from just about any company out there since they are all building them.

If you're interested in staying legal in the 180+ range, look at Elans, Rossignols, and Volkls. I ski with a J2 once in awhile who skis a 181 Rossignol and does just fine (okay, more than fine... about 100 points).

You might also look into this from a technique angle as well. By this I mean - will putting your son on a ski with a tighter radius be compensating for lacking technique instead of light weight. The kid I referenced above can't be more than 130lbs soaking wet and he has no trouble with a 181 Rossi. He struggled a bit on my Fischers when he tested them, but he still skied the course very well and only came in about .2 seconds slower on my 183 Fischers. So... the point being is that technique can overcome light weight if you get him on the right pair of legal skis... but if the technique isn't there, it won't matter what skis you put him on - he won't be able to turn them. He might survive on a cheater ski, but he won't be "skiing" it.

Later

Greg

I have no allegiance to Head or any other manufacturer- I just want him to have the right ski for him. Last year I demo'd three brands of "cheater" GS skis for myself, Vokl 12-foot, Rossi Z-11 and Nordica Top Fuel, and found a huge difference between them in regards to stiffness. The Vokls were solid but not lively at all, the Nordicas “beat me up” with too much flex, and the Rossis were, as Goldilocks used to say, just right.

He's got good technique according to his coaches. They acknowledge that the regulation skis are going to be very difficult for him, but can't budge to recommend "cheaters". The long radius- stiff ski issue is perhaps exacerbated by the short courses that we run around here- vertically in the 600' vertical range, which from what I am told requires them to set GS gates tighter than they otherwise would.

Unfortunately I couldn't get my son to demo any skis when he had the opportunity two weeks ago. He doesn't want me to spend the money. Not sure where he got that trait- not from me. Otherwise the decision would be much easier. If I want to demo skis I have to make deals with the local shops- which I'm sure they will be willing to do. But I would like to narrow down the choices.

Based on my experience I'm looking at Nordicas. During my demos the Vokls were too stiff for me (I'm 160#), the Nordicas had too much flex. Second choice maybe Rossi R-11s (Mutix), as one of my ski buds that is 140# likes his very much (plus the stiffness is adjustable). Dynastars might be good too but I just visited the local shop last weekend and they didn’t have a comparable pair available.

Dude....the suggestion for Volkl is spot-on.

I did a Race Stock demo a couple of years ago with Dynastar, Rossignol, Fischer, Atomic, and Volkl. The Volkl and Atomic were fastest in the course for me with the Volkl being waaaaay easier to ski and incredibly tolerant of mistakes. They're pretty darn soft for a WC ski.

As a kid about the same size (5-9, 130) I think that your son should be able to turn just about any ski if he has the proper technique. Sure, some will be a little tougher (Atomic...) but others should be fine as long as he gets enough ski time on them.

I ski Volkl for both tech events (183 or 187 GS, depending on whether or not they'll be checking radius - meaning almost always a 183 women's ski) as it's a pretty light ski that's soft and lively. If you're in the mood for a cheater ski, the non-FIS Racetiger is a great ski - pretty close to the stock version except a bit softer and the obvious tighter radius.

I haven't skied Nordica's GS ski this year, but their SL ski is soft as well, but a bit dense, and not as lively (I thought). Assuming the GS is about the same, this could work out pretty well too.

Last time I did an all-out ski test, between Volkl, Atomic, Rossi, Fisher, Nordica, and Elan a couple years ago (four runs per ski at local hill ~900 ft vertical, 2 free runs and 2 in a timed course for both GS and SL .. .took all day but was fun if not completely the smartest way to pick skis), Volkl and Fischer were fastest in GS and Volkl and Nordica in the SL (for ME), with the racetigers being the most fun outside the course, and the easiest to steer/correct mistakes with.

Yay shameless pushing Volkl. But whatever idea you have of Volkl's race skis being stiff is simply not true. Probably the softest ski out there (Rossi used to be in the discussion as well, I've heard they've really stepped up a notch though) with great edge hold and great maneuverability. I also like that they're pretty light, which makes them easy to recover with.

Just small correction... for World Cup GS, FIS rules for women are 180/23 (185/27 for men).

I race on Volkl's, and have 2 pairs of GS skis, one pair being a Racestock 180 at a 21m radius, the other being a WorldCup stock 187 at a 27m radius. I use the 180 Racestocks for tighter courses, and the 187s for faster courses. I'm assuming that down there they are running minimum gate courses on tiny hills, and I know exactly what that is like, and frankly, it sucks. The rule book says little to nothing about gate spacing, and some of the turns could qualify as slalom turns. I have had a handful of races like that, and 180 racestocks do perfect. I am 5'9 and 150lbs, and find them a tad too soft at times, yet they respond perfectly in tight courses.

yea, he was just saying that the 182 at a 24m would be under regulation and skiable for Women's WC/Continental Cup.

Try moving the binding forward on the Head and see what happens. I'll bet everything comes into shape. Move in 1 cm steps, but it may take several cms to make the skis work.

Lou

Wow, all good information, and much appreciated, especially the info from dawgcatching about the oxymoron. It helped me discuss things with a bit more intelligence at the local shops.

Shop #1 sells Nordica and Head, and I talked with the owner about this, and he suggested the Nordica Dobermann GS Pro. He also offered to sell it to me at his cost. They had a Nordica all mountain ski available for demo but he didn't think it would be a valid comparison.

Shop #2 sells Rossi and Atomic, and the manager suggested the Rossi R-11. He offered to sell it as his cost as well. Apparently the wholesaler has some leftover from last year so the price was fantastic, actually.

I talked to my son about this and he liked the R-11's. I thought it was a no-brainer myself since the power arms give the ski some adjustment as far as flexibility. Also, I'm on a Monday night adult league and two of my teammates have these, both small guys (140# or so) and both swear by them. So I ordered them, and I just picked them up last night. (They claim a "dynamic" radis of 13 or 17, but I measure them to be about 15.5.)

After I ordered them I had my son try my Rossi Z-11s (16m radius). According to Shop #2 they are the all mountain version of the R-11. He liked them so much that I didn't get them back. In fact we had a USSA race at Snowshoe last weekend, he ran them in the GS and came in right behind the first third of the pack. That's better than he was as a J-3 without the regulation ski issue and much better than he was last year as a J-2 running the >23M heads. On his second run he went "ALL OUT" and knocked off a full second, actually tied the Masters' race winner.

I think we're on the right track. Regardless, he was the happiest kid on the mountain after that GS race and at the end of the day that's what its all about.

I think that would be a good exercise. We have a 3-day weekend coming up we'll probably try that and see what happens.

Since my son commandeered my Z-11s I skied his Head iGS for two days. I found them very difficult to turn below, say, 20mph and going fast, they skied well after that; very smooth ski almost like gliding on a smooth ice rink (similar feeling to the Vokl's I demo'd last spring), although a little hard to initiate the turn (felt like a hesitation). Conditions were thin packed powder surface over boilerplate. I had a big problem, though, when I got a high edge angle, and the ski would consistently disengage and slip out on me. It felt like just the tip and tail edges were in the snow and I had no grip right under my boot. I took one run in GS practice gates, which at that point was worn down to the boilerplate and I was all over the course.

Those Head GS skis are burly (as are any race stock GS skis), they are meant for speed and high G's, its not surprising that you felt the way you did while skiing them. Before giving up on them, you may want to also check their tune.

Sounds to me like they're just too stiff.

The rules for juniors are kind of bizzare, IMHO...

...and I think the numbers you have above are for GS skis. I ski exclusively on Atomic, and I love the way they feel. The good thing about Atomic is that they make a full range of honest to God race skis. For example, for Masters racing, the full-on FIS World Cup requirements (for GS, 186 cm., 27 meter sidecut minimum) are a "recommendation", not a requirement. A good thing, too. I just made the mistake of getting two pairs of 186 cm. GS12s. Too straight for Masters courses, too much for a Chronologically Challenged racer like me. So I just went to the 183 cm. 24 meter GS12, which is a women's WC FIS legal ski. Great ski, solved all my problems.

Atomic also makes the ST12 and LT12, which are softer versions of the SL12 and GS12 respectively. I've heard that Kathryn Zettel and some of the other smaller women on the WC are using these skis with red and white graphics.

And, finally, Atomic has a whole spectrum of kids race skis. So give them a look...

We do our own tuning, and these are set at 1 and 3 just like most of our others. I'm negotiating a trade for some Vokls.

Not sure if this is too late to jump in on this thread, but I thought I'd toss my 2 bits worth into the pot. My wife and I both ski on the Supershape Speed, and find them remarkably easy to ski on. They are not overly stiff longitudinally, but torsionally quite firm, as expected from a sandwich sidewall ski. They are incredibly smooth and stable on the snow, and very easy to control. Note that we both have moved our bindings forward +2cm from the factory mark (as Lou recommended), making them much more versatile and agile (better balance). You can find our comments on how much difference the binding position made to the handling of this ski here: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=78763

FYI, my wife is 5'7", 130 lbs, skis the 06/07 model in a 163; I have the 08/09 model in a 170 -- this year's model is a bit wider all around and has more sidecut.

I demoed the 07/08 Laser Cross Pro last season, and liked it for its incredible stability, smoothness, and great edge grip. A great ski, but I found it much more sluggish to initiate turns than the SS Speed, and therefore not nearly as versatile. It is stiffer than the SS Speed as well, and would not be suited for a lighter skier.

Hope this helps....