Senior ski test requirmnets?

I have looked around and cant seem to find much info about the Senior patroler program. Like the test requirements for skiing or is it very subjective like the basic test it. but on a division standard I am in the SE division if that matters


Or could you guys just also share your experances with what you had to do for your senor test. I passed my basic test in feb and i am thinking what i may want to try the senor test in 08 or this winter if I can do it but realistically i am shooting for the season after this one.

Thanks

Ahhh, the Sr Program. A life experience I will never forget. I would do it again in a second, however develop a thick skin. The evaluations are subjective. As much as the Evaluators try not to make them subjective, they are.

So good luck, have fun and if you are not successful, so what, you learned new stuff, you met new folks, and the best part is that you get to do it again next year.

NSP senior = jollies for the vollies

can you please elaborat on that?

I am going to be on payed patrol this year and dont see mysellf going back to the volentear side of the house. I was just looking to do the senior test so it will look good on a resume if i decide to move from the south east to the west. AND to kind of shove it in some guys faces on the patrol that like to look down on me because i was a "candidate". but more for the resume thing OR do patrols out west look at that?

Good luck! First, find out where and when it will be, and practice for those conditions. Look pretty. Make no errors when going thru the moguls with the toboggan (rip when empty, slow and perfect when loaded). Look pretty. Smile a lot, look like you're having a wonderful time even when you're not..which is most of the time. Look really pretty. Schmooze the instructors / evaluators. Look very pretty. Don't laugh at the evaluator when he yard sales in in the crud (my fatal error when I did it the first time). Look pretty. Be sure to tell the evaluators what amazing skiers they are...even when they aren't...most have egos bigger than all outdoors. Expect them to import a real raving a-hole evaluator or two. When they tote out the 270 lb guy to ride the loaded sled thru the bumps, you should be "fixing a little binding problem" and very politely ask if they can skip you for just a minute or two.

The whole thing is pretty political. The favorites will be cut a LOT more slack than those who aren't. It's disgusting. Oh, lastly, it is entirely possible to have perfect sled runs thru moguls and not, perfect crud skiing, perfect equipment handling, and fail because your feet are too close together when making medium radius turns on perfectly groomed slopes.

I have a national number now and was a successful patrol director, but this was without a doubt the low point of my entire skiing career and NSP experience. Supposedly this has been fixed...it hasn't.

Good luck.

True all true. I must have been a glutton for punishment, because I enjoyed it. I was unsuccessful many times but it got me to different areas, and meeting different patrollers who I Keep in touch with to this day.

I agree with nypatroller, very subjective testing. I dunno, I've never tested for it but i tagged along with someone who tested this past winter. I was beyond turned sour on the whole nsp, it seemed like a good ol boys club and the whole time the phrase "those that can't do, teach", was stuck in my head. My friend failed the toboggan test and I've seen few people who are more competent than him. It just seems like in my experience that its the volunteers that want the confirmation of some patch to prove that they are competent.

As far as what western mountains want there are others on here that are more qualified to speak on that and I hope that he chimes in. My patrol director doesn't seem to worried about it, he's more concerned with in house training and knowing that you can do the job.

As a western Ski Patrol director, I don't really put much stock in whether or not you have passed your senior test. If you want to do it, do it because you want to, not to shove anything in anyones face.:

It might help a bit but probably not.

We are a pro division NSP team.

Hope that helps.

thanks for all the replys guys.

As for the shove in anyones face thing... I prob chose my words poorly. I am a little more professional than that. There are just one or two guys on the patrol (volunteers) that I did not like the way they acted towards me and the other candadits last season. And though i would like to pass the senor before them i would not even say anything to them about it.

BUT 95% of it is to become a better ski patroler. and the best skier i can be.

additional information on the senior test

Saw an excerpt from this thread floating around as bad publicity for the senior ski and toboggan evaluation and wanted to offer some additional info. If you go to the central division website http://www.nspcentral.org/at_domains_index.html , there is a senior manual posted there. The central division board and training staff spend two years developing and validating the process and criteria for thier members. As a part of the process, the role of QA monitor was developed. We now have a division staff person at each test to assist with consistency. The score card has been developed with some specific criteria to tyr to take as much subjectivity as possible out of the eval. Hope you find this helpful. mindy mitchell Director Soutwest Region, central division NSP

Oh my...my Sr test was in 1968 and it was a 2 day boot camp run with stop watches and bull horns.....nuff said, and yes I passed!

SwissMiss

That is funny and how true. I still don't see the benefits in going through the process.

All good comments. Yes subjective. That said, I think the Senior S&T evaluators and trainers really try their best to improve the S&T skills of the patrollers. I agree it can be rather amusing when you hear the evaluators discuss if Joe passed because he was out of position during the tail rope and the tail rope was a little tight. Especially when their is no doubt that Joe can out ski and can handle a toboggan better than everyone of the evaluators.

Have fun. Learn better ski and toboggan skills. How bad can it be. If you pass you pass. If you don't pass. No worries.

I believe their is a chapter on Senior testing in the 501 Ski Patroller's Manual.

It's funny, most guys (and gals) seem to sweat the ski and toboggan portion the most-but really, it's the advanced, leadership oriented OEC portion that is the most important (and probably the most 'portable' skill-like western patrol guy told you-your competency on Southeastern mountains means little to nothing as you travel region to region--AND, if you really want some sort of meaningfull NSP accolades that does carry some national weight-take the three years and try to become a fully CERTIFIED patroller).

I will say that the senior program (in our region) has helped turn margnal skiers into very competent ones--most of the folks I know on the Senior S&T board are great instructors who really want all their candidates to pass, and work pretty hard to get them there--most of the complaining of actual instances of unfair subjective evaluation I've heard about concerns to OEC senior test and ot the ski portion.

Bryan, does that sound right to you (and are you going to visit our little hill anytime soon)??

Liam

If Joe was such a super toboggan handler, then why did Joe hang on to the tail rope like he was water skiing? Was that an isolated instance, or did Joe water skied with his tail rope time and time again? These are the questions being discussed among the evaluators. And indeed they are valid questions. True, many Senior candidates have skills superior to some on the evaluation staff. However, can the candidate harness his superlative skills to meet a stated and reasonable objective? I have seen many candidates with great free skiing skills completely fall apart taking toboggans through the moguls. Seems they assumed their super skiing skills will translate directly into braking wedge, transitions, sideslipping tactics necessary to negotiate toboggans through moguls. Their skills don't translate directly, not without some guidance and coaching. To assume otherwise is usually their downfall.

On the upper levels of any sport, the skills of the trainees surpassing those of the coaches is not uncommon. That fact does not diminish the ability of evaluators to evaluate performance, or for trainers to coach their candidates.

On another subject, TE's do not want to flunk people. In every clinic I have ever participated in, TEs bend over backwards trying to give marginal candidates the benefit of the doubt, and give them second and sometimes third chances to show what they've got.

The best advice I can give candidates is to go in with a good idea of the performance level expected, and a good idea of how your own skills stack up to that level. Solid candidates can pass even on a bad day with a hang over. Marginal candidates will need to have a good day. Inadequate candidates should go with a view of the clinic being a learning experience. The second advice I can give candidates is to pay attention to the evaluator instructions, and do exactly as you are told. If you are asked to make 2 transitions between pole A and pole B, make 2 transitions. Don't hotdog and try 3 or 4. If you are asked to show controlled skiing through bumps, don't zipperline at warp speed with an iron cross thrown in. Show them controlled skiing through bumps. Lastly, and most importantly, stay loose. Remember the TEs want to pass you. Work with them so they feel good about passing you.

I'll be happy to concede that the Sr S&T is an "interesting" learning expenience. Not just for skiing, but for interesting interpersonal relationships. Failed it twice, once justly, once unjustly (BTW, I am an S&T instructor), then went far away to another area with different T/E's and passed just fine. I got screwed by ONE T/E with ONE - for free skiing with the exceptionally helpful comment that "if I'd looked better under the lift line" I would have passed. Gee thanks for that useful advice. At that time you had to repeat the entire glorious experience.

Ah well, I've since then enjoyed (in a way) watching the T/E who screwed me twice blow right past accidents with toboggans...he was so into skiing the sled that he forgot where he was going! Hundreds of feet down the hill this highly skilled senior T/E realized what he'd done. Both times. Fortunately, I had another fine basic patroller at the top to bring another sled to me.

Ah well. There always has to be an a-hole in every crowd. The Sr OEC (now called EMM) was an excellent and worthwhile experience in every way; can't say enough good about it.

Whwn I took my senior test and granted this was decades ago, I guess it was much more objective. The one part I vividly remember was straight running a narrow corridor marked by slalom poles with a loaded toboggan. This opened up into a square area again marked by slalom poles. You had to stop within the box. No objectivity, you either stopped in the box or you didn't

I thought the whole thing was kinda funny. The evaluators couldn't ski that well. They were threatening to fail me for skiing too fast with the sled. I just started doing pivot slips and they loved it. The free skiing part was strange. I skied better than both of the evaluators but they had lots of suggestions about things that should be better, but that they couldn't demonstrate accuratly. I might do it again on tele and snowboard just for laughs. The tail roping was really funny... I told my guy to match my speed and not put tension on the rope. There was a flat then an up to get to the patrol room. I got to the part where you have to point it a little and started to feel resistance. I looked back and the guy was fully in waterski mode with huge eyes. I made him pull the sled up the hill by himself... friggin gaper.

Please correct me if I am reading this wrong. It sounds to me like you feel the whole snr evaluation was a wasted day for you. What is not apparent to me, then, is why did you go through it, and why do you want to do it again on another type of equipment? It is already acknowledged that being senior gains you nothing concrete. You already acknowledged that the TEs know nothing and that you are a way better skier and toboggan handler than they. Why go through the trouble for a secret handshake?

Blaster,

Feel free to PM me I'm the senior coordinator for the Dixie region and will be happy to answer any of your questions. As for many of the comments you read in this thread there are many patrollers who come away from the program with very positive experiences, like everything else we tend to only hear about negative ones. There is no reason to rush into the senior program get out there and patrol for a year and put to task everything you've learned. C~ongrats in passing your basic.

This is a pretty disheartening post..If I read it right, you made a fellow student look bad (and now have called him a gaper) just so you could cement the impression that you are a way better skier than your examiners?? Feel good about that??

The reality is, sooner or later you will have to run a sled with another patroller who isn't as good of a skier as you (and maybe someday vice versa!)-but, part of the job, when done well, is that the man in the handles has to work with and communicate with the guy on the ropes-all for the safety of the patient in the toboggan (whom the whole excercise is really about afterall!). It seems to me, that part of the test challenge is to demonstrate you could work with a less talented skier and coordinate your efforts and still would have made it up the incline if you had the knowledgeable leadership skills of a senior.

Liam

Indeed. A large emphasis of senior level tasks is about people skills and working with people. On the OEC side, you will have multiple casualty problems, language barriers, combative bystanders, untrained helpers, etc. On the S&T side, we stress that a senior level performance involves working well with others of different abilities. You don't score a 6 if you leave your tail rope guy hanging on by the skin of his teeth because you felt like hot dogging it on the handles. You need to demonstrate that you are aware of his limitations and to make reasonable accommodation so that he can do his job. If you can't work with others, you don't belong. I am sorry this may come across as harsh, but that is a fact.

I'm sorry about that post. The tone is inappropriate. I don't think that the day was wasted time. I was kinda kidding about the gaper part. I did help him pull the sled up to the room. I really thought that he and I had disscused the plan before we started. The speed that we were travelling at was not very high. I could have legitimatly failed the test for dragging my tail roper. I think that the examiners were suprised that not one team of senior candidates planned their line thoughtfully enough that they made it across 30' of flat and a slight uphill.

I had to go last night, but feel like I had more to say... The thing about that day is that people were very uptight about being evaluated. Two people from my patrol didn't pass. I don't think that they should have, but the reason they performed badly was nerves. I also strongly dissagreed with what the evaluators were telling us about sled handling and tail roping. I was trained to get people assesed, packaged, and transported quickly. It is not a race, but it is very cold here and we should not dillydally around. The evaluators wanted the transport to be absurdly slow. Hence the pivot slips and falling leafs. Both neccisarry skills for transport, but not in my opinion the primary tool. I also didn't like the way they were advocating the tail roping be done. I think the tail roper is a back up, not a braking device. The tail roper should be up the fall line providing some lateral resistance to help prevent the the sled from breaking loose on traverces and in bumps. The tail roper should not, for the most part, be directly inline with the sled trying to be a brake. If braking is neccisarry it is more effective to use a slipping action or some quick short radius turns than a huge wedge. The incident that I was reffering to happened on the final test. The evaluators were suprised that all of the teams ran out of gas without making it to the patrol room. I would expect new patrol candidates to be able to perform that move and ours do. The breakdown was from the mixed messages being sent through the whole day. GO SLOW... GO SLOW... GO SLOW... Now.. Why are you so slow? The nerves from the participants surpised me... It is the NSP I take it seriously and want to test well, however my life has a lot more going on than the outcome of an NSP or PSIA evaluation. Some of the folks who didn't pass were so spun out over it that they started to doubt the skills they do have and lost a large chunk of their enthusiasm for patrolling. I think the key is to be so well trained before you go to the evaluation that the outcome is practically predetermined. It is after all a senior evaluation. I would expect all who show up to actually be able to ski well. Again I am sorry about the prior ignorant post. My intent was to get people to relax a bit so they can do better. I shouldn't log on when I am not in my right mind. If I had said those things in the bar, they might have been funny. On a public forum they get missinterpreted and I come off as a douchebag.

No harm done. I apologise for the reflex response as well. I come from the other side of the fence, so to speak, and I see a lot of "attitudes" on evaluation day. The principle issue here, based on your description, is a failure to coordinate training in keeping with the evaluation. Candidates are trained one way, but they are evaluated by a different criteria. In our region, our TE's travel and conduct clinics not only to senior candidates but also to the local trainers. That way, the candidates have a realistic expectation of how they will be evaluated, and the local trainers will know how to train their candidates in keeping with Division expectations. Of course, some folks like yourself do disagree with how things ought to be done. It's perfectly alright for you to disagree, but you will know well ahead of time how you need to perform on evaluation day. Please remember that TE's are also following guidelines handed down from Divisional level as to what they want the candidates to demonstrate. NSPS is not unlike PSIA. For PSIA level 2 or 3 exams, candidates need to perform certain drills that were designed to assess if the candidates have certain fundamental moment patterns and skills necessary for higher level skiing. Like javelin turns, or leapers, or white pass turns. You certainly won't normally ski that way.

Really, evaluation is simple. Candidates need to know what is expected of them ... and here is where I think the problem came in your case. If it's a slow braking wedge and side slip the TE ask for, then show them your best slow braking wedge and side slip. Evaluation day is not the time for a candidate to argue about the appropriateness of the braking wedge. TE's generally have little patience for that. Just show them the braking wedge. Period.

Of course, I also believe some TE's take themselves and their jobs a tad too seriously, and this has a tendency to get everyone all uptight about the whole thing.

Attitudes exist on both sides of the evaluation fence. I thought there was a huge amount of ego on the part of at least one of the trainers. I have some ego, like we all do, but I don't "hotdog" and while I am not afraid to question, I didn't argue with the evaluators. I must know something about it though because I was invited to be a "model" for the ski & tobbagan book. It didn't fit my schedule so I am not in the book. I think that it is important to know how to do all the skills and demonstrate them in a certification. A senior level patroler should be able to select the appropriate skill blend for the situation. I understand what you are saying and I think that face to face we would find that we agree. As for PSIA drills... You do ski that way in as much as the movement patterns that the "goofy" drills are designed to expose should be in your everyday skiing. If you really want attitude about the senior ski and tobagan get our PD started on it. There are some people pushing me to become a ski/tobaggan trainer. I might someday, right now my winter is heavily booked with instruction and patrolling. (I did the quick reply option, there should be some emoticons... Don't take anything I say too seriously)

I have been a Senior Patroller since 1989 - I spent more time on bringing my OEC (WEC then) skills up to the standard than on the skiing/toboggan skills.
After becoming a senior I spent a good many years training and evaluating senior OEC skills thoughout the region.
Most comments posted on this forum is on the senior evaluation, not the training - You are missing the point folks, it's the training, yep you travel to different areas, train with different people, train on different skill sets. All this training covers the senior evaluation (completely). Yep it is on your nickle and sometimes it may seem as though you may know more than the trainers, but you will become comfortable with the people that are evaluating your skills, and the people that are having thier skills evaluated at the same time you are. You will learn who is strong in what skills and you will learn which evaluator is looking for what skills. We are all human (that's great) the senior program is one in which you have demostrated the patrolling skills while interacting with a variaty of people (but all people) with slightly different skill levels.
In summarizing if you do the training sessions, the evaluation is just another training session. If you approach the evaluation as a test, it will be a test (a difficult test). Yep, it's a time consuming program, it takes you out of "your" day to day situations and brings you to a new level of experiences.
I would also add that most patrollers can and do operate at a senior level in alot situations just need to put it all together at one time. I loved to say "you are a new senior", and I hated to say this skill needs to be improved, or ask "why did you do this?"