Palmer P02

Last Wednesday, a couple of staff members and I got together @ Northstar for a day of groomer zoomin'. To put some fun and challenge into the day, we brought six skis along to compare how different sidecuts work. Skis in the mix were......Nordica Mach3 Carbon, Fischer RX-9, Atomic M11-B5, Palmer P02, Dynastar Exclusive Powder, Salomon Scarlet.

Testers were

Myself (57 y/o 5'10"-190#) Fairly good technical skier for an old guy.
Tyler (22 y/o 6'4"-200#) Agressive but a little unschooled.
Katherine (25 y/o 5'9" 150#) Rips groomers on a high edge.

Palmer P02, Conventional wood metal layup, sandwich rather than box. Sidecut (163/12.5m) = 120-68-107 set up with Tyrolia Carve plate. The Palmer differs from other skis in two shape factors.

"Klothoid" Radii sidecut = Multi radius tip shape with 7 radii overlapping with the tightest radius at the initial contact point getting gradually longer toward mid body. Result = progressive sidecut with smooth pressure transitions.

Dynamic Power Distribution = Very low profile tip with a unique camber profile that causes the tip splay to peel back from the normal contact point when the ski is decambered. Result = ski intiates from the normal contact point, then the pressure causes the tip to splay back, reducing to tendancy of the tip to "dig" and oversteer.

Uhhhhh.....no I'm not making this up, that's what they say..........:

Conditions were firm man made (chalky) snow with a little dust on the 'tween trees crust'. We all skied the other carvers first so that I could do a little "ski personality" clinic. Then we mixed in the Palmer and did rapid fire switches. I found the Palmer to be very solid for a 163 with grip nearing the level of the other skis. It liked a high edge and was easier in medium carves than in was in short radius steered turns. The ski was more damp than expected and was secure on the firm snow. In a quick foray over the rough stuff, it laid down with excellent manners. Given the deep shape, I was surprised by the overall stability, but disappointed in the lack of energy. It is just not a snappy ski. Katherine was next up and she was whooping immediately. This is her kind of ski and she thought that the grip, power and ride was similar to her HR Modified but with a tighter radius. Tyler was not impressed. His style is not up to date, and although he likes most carvers, he steers a bit too much for a 163 with this shape. Tyler was however, positive about the grip and stability for such a small ski.

Generally, I'd say this is a superb carver but not revolutionary. To be fair, I would have to compare it against other skis in the same size and the others were all 170-176. Whether the shape technologies offer any advantages is questionable. Often, a shorter carve will oversteer, and this one doesn't. This may be due to the unique camber and pressure distribution, then again, it may not. I have skied progressive sidecuts before and on a bigger ski like a K2 Outlaw, there is a difference. In this shape, I'm just not sure.

I'm leaving for SIA in a few hours but I doubt that I'll drop paper on this one.

SJ

Interesting. Not the type of ski I would expect from "Palmer", I would expect more of a big mountain type ski or even a cross type ski. Skis are fairly simple, these sound like they are over engineered and an answer to a question that was never asked.

I hear a few days back that the skis were designed by Hans-Jörg Kessler (the best builder of snowboard raceboards taking nearly every podium, even though riders have to pay for using the boards and are not sponsored by Kessler).

Based on Kessler snowboards I would expect a super damp ski with lots of titanal inside. Take the ski out on a very icy day and I think it will be great fun. However as allways Palmer stuff is designed in principle by Kessler but then noone could afford the materials used in the prototypes for a massproduced item and Palmer stuff then lacks some qualities to the Kessler custom manufactured boards.
(Oh BTW Atomic paid big money to get a ski-press for their worldcup raceroom skis from Kessler)

Palmer P01 - P02 review followup

SierraJim has added some more comments to his rides on the Palmer P02 carver and a brief impression of the Palmer P01 twintip ski (thanks Jim)...

See them at:
http://www.exoticskis.com/ExoticSkis...x?g=posts&t=12

I should be able to post some reviews of the P01 and P02 during the week of April 22-29 (we still have snow!) for everyone as a late-season teaser....
Stay tuned to Barking Bear Forums!

Finally got on the Palmer P02 skis before the snow dies out for the year.

Brief exerpt from full review (with a couple of pics) at:
http://www.exoticskis.com/ExoticSkis...x?g=posts&t=12


The Palmer P02 is remarkably effortless. It didn't sink in until after I finished up the testing session. Because of its low weight, corresponding low swing-weight (a sadly retired term), and perhaps its geometry and flex pattern, the P02 can allow the skier to arc serious cuts into the surface of dozens of different runs all day without encountering the fatigue often associated with other frontside carving skis. That's significant. Overall, I really like what this ski has to offer.

I totally agree with SierraJim's review of this ski. Not immediately extraordinary, but impressive the more you live with it.

Do you know more about the Hans-Jörg Kesslers commitment to the ski?
I only know that from next season (or was it this one already) he had a major impact on the race stock ski production from Atomic (shapes and a pressing machine they bought from him). Kessler allways played a dominant part in the Palmer Board construction AFAIK.

All I know is his name is emblazoned on the logo used on the '08 Palmer snowboard and ski catalog for dealers. Must be involved for next year..at least...

Well yes for snowboards he is heavily involved AFAIK so I was wondering about skis. I don't expect them to say much about it though - he is their secret weapon.

Does anyone have any idea which shops have these skis? I've checked the websites of several of the shops listed on the Palmer site, but I've only seen snowboards - no skis.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thank you.

Got back on the Palmer P02 carving ski during the near-to-last day in New England.


MORNING:
Topmost steeper trail section was harder than expected for a late spring day, excellent to test the P02, no tracks left to see as you turned...the last 2/3 of the trail was "set your depth" corn snow...groomed smooth in the morning, but soft and deep enough to sink down shin deep if you pushed it and bank a big turn with a laid-over ski. Palmer P02s where quick to transition left to right at any pace you wanted, quick little toys. Really shined on the hard surface...quick and easy carving arcs....immediately felt very narrow under foot in the softer corn...never did the "Dive Captain!" routine in the forebody...only underfoot if you pushed down. Don't bully this ski, just set its angle and apply body weight...not "pressure". Really really FUN.


AFTERNOON:
Soft, soft corn, still bottomless, but cut up into long rolled pillows, not really bumps...just lots of turn trenches and piles of corn. The little Palmer P02s were actually fun to follow the troughs, rebounding in and out...just don't come down with all your weight on top of a corn pile...down you'd go...moof. They really liked to find some firmer surface at the bottom of some of the trenches...took a nice bite and "zing"...out they'd come. Again, I was impressed at how light they feel on your feet and how effortless it was to make some really, really nice carves. They instinctively began to make me focus on carving the uphill ski with more pressure than normal...I really can't wait to get these on some firmly groomed surfaces. I got on these skis for my last runs of the day, and was impressed at how easy they made it to crank any size turn...even through the cut up corn piles.



Summary:
"Captain, you'd better come to the bridge. There's something on screen you should see."
While not "revolutionary", I think Palmer has naturally evolved the frontside carving ski into a new species. Not a racer, not a hypercarver, but a technician's tool for groomers with excellent performance for very, very little input effort. A track-layer you can ski all day. A ski that puts the "fun" back in carving instead of "work". I think this one will make some waves next year. Watch for it. I feel a cult-following coming on...Let's see how sturdy it is and how it holds up under a season's wear and tear.


Full thread can be seen at:
http://www.exoticskis.com/ExoticSkis...x?g=posts&t=12

Interesting...verrrry interesting.

I wouldn't be concerned about build quality. All these skis are as well built as anything that I have seen. They may have missed the mark a little with the twins as I can't see that park market buying in just yet. OTH if they had built the twins with that construction quality but with a little more of the "all mountain" skier as the target, they could have something.

FWIW....these are built waaaaay better than most of the independant brands that I have handled and those brands seem to be able to sell some skis. If Palmer puts that quality into an 85mm all mountain flex and a 105 (ish) big mountain flex, I think there will be folkls lining up. Given their quality and commitment, and assuming they can capture the "cool factor" it is probably just be a matter of time.

SJ

anybody got any pix of the new Palmers?

also, how does their patented “DPD” or Dynamic Power Distribution, differ from say LIB Tech's "Magnetraction" that they have on their Narrow A$$ Snowboards (their 99mm waisted ski)?

The MagneTraction seems to be a serrated-edge or "scalloped" wavy edge profile...the DPD Klothoid of Palmer is an ovoid curve (layman's term), not scalloped.

P02 Pics: (click images for larger versions)
http://www.exoticskis.com/ExoticSkis...x?g=posts&t=12

P01 Pics: (click images for larger versions)
http://www.exoticskis.com/ExoticSkis...x?g=posts&t=13

Palmer P02 Carving Ski 2007-2008

Palmer P01 TwinTips 2007-2008

I had the pleasure of sking w/ the exotic folks @ Kmart. They were good enough to let me on their boards!
The P 02 was really a fun ski in the softer snow. I was suprised how easy it came around & how light of a ski it was. I thought for the blue level skier this would be a winner hands down!!!
A couple of disign notes: the tip is SG low profile, slush ran right over it. The tail is super wide & flat, really engaged.
I am not so certain I would like it on harder snow, but still a all round fun ski for the finess crowd. Even in the soft stuff, you could overpower the ski w/ ease.

To answer my own question: Sierra Jim came through and the skis arrived today. True, the shovel is shallower than my other skis. The 163 length looks to be about a 163 length - a little shorter than my 164 Stockli Stormrider XLs and quite a bit taller than my 160 Fischer SCs. The lack of graphics is pretty interesting, but I guess that may be expected from a snowboard company as they probably assume the buyer will cover them with stickers.

sorry to dredge up an old post, but i was just cleaning out the PM box and came across a message from Exotic about the Palmers.

am i the only one who finds it strange that a snowboard company would make skinny skis first?

Lib Tech and Prior, both indie board companies, don't make anything skinnier than an 83mm and 88mm ski, respectively.

perhaps Palmer is trying to separate themselves from the pack, but if they're specialty is snowboards, i would think they'd be more into making wider planks.

then again what do i know?

*****okay, i'm blind, baby, blind...see that the P01 in a 179 is 87mm at the waist...now they just need to make something in about a 185cm...



i do dig the simplistic topsheets, though.

The Palmer catalog has some silhouettes of many different shapes and lengths of skis in a "conceptual" section about shapes and geometries...me thinks they have indeed tried many shapes and sizes and settled on two particular niches for this season....Pipe and Park (big seller for the teen crowd) and technical carvers. The big mountain fatty segment is pretty crowded right now...but then again......

We'll just have to see what they come up with later!

ah, missed the conceptual section.

the park skis make sense, but the carvers really don't. again i'm just basing this on the basic stereotype of snowboarders and how the general populace doesn't lean toward carving boards, but rather wider, softer, floatier boards, thus making it appear more "logical" for a snowboard company to gravitate towards making wider, softer, floatier skis.

then again you did nail it in that the "powder" speciality market is a bit overcrowded these days.

however it just seems that the majors have the whole carving thing locked down. that's my reasoning behind the surge in park and powder specific small/exotic ski companies. they were filling a niche that the majors have only just begun to get super serious about.

regardless, here's to hoping that Palmer plugs along and kicks out some solid planks.

Me thinks Palmer may be going after a new demographic group with the P02 carver...expand, expand, expand (until you get too big and go belly-up from all the expense of trying to sell into those markets...ah...history repeats itself...)...anyway...

The carvers also sell really well in Europe these days...along with the fatty-planks...

I really liked the P02 carvers I demoed last year...the best part about them is the very light weight and silly-ease with which they can slice a turn on the hardpack...race-like turn without the muscle or fuss !...

Let's wish 'em luck...

The success or failure of the Palmer ski project will be more marketing based than product based at the start. The build quality of the skis is really good and while the 02 might be thought of as a limited market here in the West, there are customers for these skis in the East in Eu, and Japan. For sure, the 02 is as good as anything else in the category but at this point it is waaaaayyyyy off the screen of the general public. There will be a few more skis next year and at least one that is a somewhat wider shape. The key to product success in the mid-fat/sorta kinda fat/etc market is building a little stiffer ski. Right now, they are a little soft.

Jumping into the super fat or alternative shape realm makes little sense as the return would not be worth the R&D time and effort let alone costs. These guys have (to date) not done anything halfway and early on, it's just not worth it. There are plenty of suppliers in that category already and the slices of that pie are going to get progressively thinner.

SJ

Any idea on who will carry Palmer Skis in the Reno/Tahoe area? I checked with the RMS and Bobo's here in Reno and they both said no. Thanks.

AFAIK.............(not much sometimes......)

We were the only ones to dip our toes in the water in N. Cal. If anybody up there would take a shot at something like this....it might be Squaw Valley Sport Shop.

SJ

Good News! That's only about 2 hours away. (Depending on traffic and weather...) Two questions:
1) When do you expect to have P02's in store?
2) What plates are mounted? I was hoping for Atomic compatible, but the reviews show a Tyrolia plate. Thanks, again.

I bought P02s from Sierra Jim last year. At that time, they were only available with the Tyrolia SP120 demo binding.
The plate that it rides on, I believe, is the Tyrolia Carve 13SLR plate. (It could be the Carve 9SLR, but I'm pretty sure it's the 13.) In any case, they differ only in height and the fact that the 13 can handle a 351mm boot sole vs. 341 on the 9.
As for bindings, I went with the Tyrolia Freeflex 15 to replace the demo binding. It's more suitable to my DIN and it is black and chrome so it looks nice with the all black ski. Comparable Head bindings or Fischer bindings would also work as well as the Tyrolia Freeflex 17 if you need the higher DIN - the Freeflex 11 is more of a Junior binding and has fewer features.
You could always add a Railflex system if you wanted the versatility, but Tyrolia informed me that you would need to redrill the ski to do so.

I just picked mine up my P02s yesterday and I could swear they are a dark dark blue. Can someone confirm this? Are my eyes playing tricks on me?

Okay, you got me. I referred to it as a black ski, but in the right light you can see that it is a really dark blue - midnight blue, maybe?

Whew. Thanks. Thought I was losing it. Midnight blue sounds about right.

Kessler specializes in making carving boards (something you see less and less these days. When's the last time you saw someone in hard boots on a board?) so I can understand them making carving skis first...