AWD vs 4WD?

Hi all. I did a quick search and couldn't find a thread for this. Apologies if one exists.

We're looking for a new car to take skiing (Sacramento to South Lake Tahoe, mostly Kirkwood, but we'd be going to the North Shore too once in a while. Mostly Hhy 50 and 88).

We keep getting conflicting advice regarding AWD vs 4WD. The 4WD we're looking at are the kind that works as long as you're going under 25mph. The AWD would be Subaru's AWD.

Clearly Subaru's AWD is excellent for snow, but is the 4WD under 25 mph ok? We're not talking off road driving here. Just regular highway driving, but sometimes in pretty deep snow. (We would be putting snow tires on regardless of which kind of car/crossover we get). All things being equal, which one is better?

Any comments appreciated.

A.

I don't think a vehicle that has 4wd only under 25mph would be very useful in your situation. What vehicle has that? I have never heard of such a thing. Best vehicle would be reg 4wd.

We're looking at a Forrester vs. RAV4 vs CR-V. The Forrester obviously is AWD. But the RAV4 has a 'Electronic On-Demand 4-wheel drive (4WD)" which we were told it doesn't kick in above 25mph.

The info about the RAV's 25mph limit came from a Subaru dealer, so we're taking it with a grain of salt.

that sounds strange--one thing you should check is whether it counts as 4wd in terms of chain controls--which it might not if its not going when you are going 35 mph (a reasonable speed in snow for some sections of road).

Check out the Ford Escape and the new Jeep Compass. Both of these are similar in size to the ones you mentioned and in my opinion are far superior. I have a Loaded 06 Escape as my work vehicle and was a little sceptical when I first heard what I was getting this year. Its been a great vehicle though. Good gas mileage even with teh v6, and the offroad/4wd ability is surprisingly good. I actually had to drive up to the top of a local ski hill in it (very rough... few creeks, big rocks... scraped the ground once or twice but nothing major) Only thing it is lacking is a 4LO...

I personally believe AWD is superior to a true, gear-driven 4WD on roads in snow and on ice. You get less gear lash and the power transfer is smoother.

If it has a low range and is rear wheel drive when both axles aren't pulling, I consider it a 4WD. If it is transaxle vehicle (front wheel drive) with the rear axle being driven by the front and has no low range, I consider it an AWD. The manufacturers tend to blur the terminology a bit.

When wheeling, I prefer my good old CJ-5. When commuting back and forth to the hill on icy highways, I like my Saturn Vue or my Toyota Matrix.

I've worked on all three of the mentioned cars at our shop that specilizes in imported trucks and SUV's.I've been able to drive all three cars in the mountains around Santa Cruz on wet and rainy days that only a duck could love. Only the Subaru sends horsepower to all the wheels all the time. The proportions may change(of horsepower that is) but both ends of the car in the Subaru are always getting some horsepower. In the Honda and Toyota the power is only going to the front wheels until the computer detects a speed difference between the speed of the front wheels and rear wheels. Only then does the power go the undriven wheels. In my book, that's a day late and a dollar short. Your wheels are starting to spin before the AWD kicks in. It may be only milliseconds before it kicks in but remember , your wheels are starting to SPIN at different speeds, the beginngs of a spin out. Yes I drive a Subaru. I have been able to make it to Kirkwood every time if the gate is open at the Spur. I come up from Stockton. The handling is much better all the time especialy in the rain. The Subaru is a poor mans Audi Quatro set up. In my experience the Subaru is equal to the Toyota and Honda in terms of quality, plus it's more fun to drive. And it works a heck of lot better than my Toyota 4X4 truck on snow covered roads. If there is more than 12in of snow on the road Cal Trans is probably going to shut down the road anyways, so I save the truck for real off road travels. If you really want to have fun in the snow get a second set of rims with dedicated snow tires. The difference in traction is staggering. I wish I hadn't waited so long to try that. I feel so stupid for having waited so long befor getting the snow tires. I got some Dunlop M3 snow tires that hardly give up anything in the way of handling on dry roads.

Bottom Line

I live in snow country.

What really matters is how the vehicle performs. I drive 4WD-Toyota and Chevys for work. I personally own two Subarus. I can testify that the Subarus do excellent in snow at speeds ranging from 2MPH to 65MPH. I've done all of the above. Once you get past the AWD/4WD semantics it all boils down to tires and skill. Nothin' like good winter tires. My Dunlop M3 Winter Sports were designed to do 100km/hr on hard pack snow and they do deliver. Not bad on ice either. Ah, those crafty Germans!

Now as to true 4WD v's AWD. In reality you won't notice any difference for snow or mud. But on pavement and dry dirt you will. With 4WD you will get hopping and wheel lockup when you make tight turns-like in parking or backing up to in a tight spot. Not a big deal, except you will trash your gear box if you run 4WD engaged on pavement for long periods. Not so with AWD. AWD does not bind up in tight turns or getting out of tight spots. Test drive the two systems and you will see what I mean.

Think of it like this: 4WD=manual transmission. AWD=automatic transmission. Both do the same thing, but the auto shifts on its own.

Oh yea, I love being able to go 50 MPH (safely) on snow on the way to the resort-- passing the chained up folk doing 25. Haven't used chains in 5 winters. I only carry them to be legal. ($95 fine to not have chains in the car)

No apologies neccessary, but you might check http://http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=29168

The cars you are looking at are all nice vehicles. I think grumpyof helped clear up some of the issues on the Toyota AWD. That traction system is the same one used on the Highlander SUV. The advantage is that by operating in FWD most of the time, you get better fuel efficiency but have AWD available. The RAV4 iith the 6-cylinder engine gets fantastic mileage, and has great power. In slippery conditions the AWD works seamlessly at any speed to provide improved traction and handling, and especially if you buy the Vehicle Dynamic Control (VDC) option. The AWD is always available but can only be locked in using the button below 25 MPH. I have a Subaru Legacy and a Nissan Murano. The Murano uses a similar on-demand AWD system, and is actually more sure footed, probably because of the continuous variable transmission and VDC.

The best part about AWD in any flavor is you don't chain up the car. The bad part is it can lead to over-confidence as exhibited in SNPete's post. Most of the cars you see off the road in the Sierra are 4X4s that were driven too fast for conditions and couldn't stop or negotiate a curve. Four wheel drive is great for traction in accelerating, but it doesn't stop the car or negotiate curves significantly better.

Any of the cars you listed will provide very good on-road traction and good handling when the roads are open, and will let you pass R1 and R2 chain control. None of them are designed for off-road travel or to get you out of a high centering.

IIRC, the Nissan Mirano's AWD shuts down at 25 MPH, I don't recall the Rav4's doing that. The Forester will be the best handling of your selection with the Rav being the largest.

4WD vs. AWD. "4WD is for off-road vehicles, AWD is for keeping hte vehicle from becoming an off road vehicle".

Well said, Phil.

Tires probably play a bigger role in traction than which particular AWD system you are using.

As for overconfidence, I see a whole lot of ditch-diving Suburbans and F350s up here on the highway. Any vehicle can slip, and as has been mentioned AWD doesn't help all that much when it comes time to stop.

Verd, You want 4 wheel drive. It is much harder to come by these days because people no longer are able to either pull the lever or push the button for 4wd.

I don't know this for certain reguarding the make you are looking at, but 4wd should not be engaged at high speed. My 4x4 Toyota Pick Up manual said not to put in 4 wheel at speeds above 25 mph. The truck should always be moving when you put in 4 wheel. I often engaged the 4 wheel at higher speeds (40) when on a straight road and on snow.

I believe that the 25 mph rule that you speak of refers to engaging the option. Once in 4 wheel you can go as fast as you like.

4 wheel drive uses less gas by a lot, is easier on the tires and provides better handling. Rarely do you need 4 wheel drive, and when you do isn't it better that you get to choose when to use it.

I drive an awd. This set up was designed for female drivers. 4wd is better imo.

I drive a Forrester. The Toyota Pick Up is not a good means of transport in snow. The back end is so light that it just doesn't work. The Subaru is much better but the back end of the Forrester is also light, but not as. It does fine until you are in an aggressive turn. It is not a well balanced car.

For all three choices, tires will be critical.

The set up on the Rave 4 sounds good. You have to slow down to 25 mph to engage 4wd. All you have to do is push a button. Think of the money you will save in tires and gas.

Thank you so much for all the replies guys. Once again you guys have totally expanded my knowledge. I feel more comfortable now with the RAV4's 4WD system. Obviously Subaru's AWD is still awesome (our other car is an Impreza with snow tires).

In addition to the results from the test drive, it will come down to where can we get the best price.

Hmm, the page is not coming up for me right now. I will try from work in a bit. Thanks for the link.

Paul,
I will disagreee with you. Do you drive in rain? oil covered roads? wet leaves? agressively? Yes to any/all of these? These are also areas where AWD is better than 4WD. Of course AWD/4WD are better in snow, but the rest of the drivign is where AWD is superior than 4WD. The last I want to be doing if I am foing around a corner is to take my hands off of the wheel to push a button or pull a lever to put the car in 4WD if I see ice/snow debris on the road.

As far as the loss on economy, I will give up 2 MPG for a better handing car. As far as tires, no different. I personally go for a summer/winter tire combo. $WD will wear more tires IF you leave it in 4WD, you get tire scrub. With AWD, there is no difference.

* I will clarify, I am talking about an AWD car vs. an AWD SUV. Either way though AWD is superior to a 4WD in "real world driving".

I wouldn't recommend buying any Chrysler product in it's first year of production. Chrysler has a penchant for putting out shoddy products without testing them sell enough, then waiting for issues to come up before fixing them. Go with something that has some sort of track record.

Another thing to possibly consider. How will you be carrying your equipment to the mountain? Inside the vehicle or on a roof rack or box? With a Subie, and a rack or box on top, the car may fit in a garage (if you have a garage), but the taller mini SUVs may not. If the gear goes inside, the Rav4 will probably fit everything better.

Its not you your list and I refrained from adding my input because I don't want to confuse you further, but......
I have had good luck with my Jeep with quadratrac. If you get a 6cyl, you'll get decent mileage, without dropping much in power.

I have a job that requires I pull trailers and get into some pretty muddy situations, as well as get to my equipment to plow in the winter before the snow plows are out. My jeep has never let me down.

I agree with the tire factor. I too see the slip-sliding 4WD/AWD vehicle in winter. Due to tires.

Folks come up here and think that just because they have 4WD/AWD ice and snow are not going to be a problem. Winter tires are a must. All season tires are really three season tires. For those who don't know, winter tires are made from a softer rubber and have a very different tread design-tons of sipeing (sp?).

BTW, when I go 50 MPH on sanded hardpack snow, it is with some caution. I know the limits of my car and tires and am sensitive to conditions. Most of the time I do drive slower. Esp when it is icy. Some days I keep it under 15 MPH.

I never dreamed of driving over 50 on snow until I was forced into it when I went to Mt. Bachelor. Everyone was going 50-60MPH on sanded hardpacked snow and I figured I should keep up with the flow of traffic. To my surprise and relief I found that could go that fast with safety. Having the right tires is the key.

4WD has a speed limit to avoid wear and tear on the tranny. You do not want to wear out your 4WD. They are very expensive to fix. The standard caution for 4WD is to not engage it on dry paved roads. I was told this is because it is designed for slippage. My Rodeo's instructions were <45MPH. Personally, I think that is a bit excessive. The purpose of 4WD is to GO. If you can go 45 mph, you can certainly do it in 2WD/AWD. In winter, at speeds above 25 MPH, the most critical factor is slowing down (as previously noted). Many people that NEED AWD/4WD to GO in winter do not have the driving skills to stay on the road when conditions get dicey. That's something to think about while driving on an icy mountain road > 25 mph.

AWD should be sufficient and more practical for normal winter driving. But if you've got the insanity to try driving when the snow is above your axles, you will inevitably appreciate the usefulness of 4WD low gear at speeds < 10 MPH.

So other than that and the hassle factor of engaging 4WD, you're probably better off looking at the quality of the tires and the anti lock braking system as the determining factor. The Suburu would be a fine choice for your stated needs.

As mentioned..TIRES. A winter specific tire is most important.Car and Driver did a comparison, a FWD car w/ 4 snow tires was better than a AWD w/ all-seasons. Of course a AWD w/ Snows is the best.

AWD is far superior to 4wd. If this is for inclimate weather travel, then the Subbie, BMW or Audi is the only way to go. For winter travel, the subbie give you heated windshield and other winter goodies the others don't. Given the price point, why would you even consider the RAV over the Subaru Outback? The Outback, especially right now is a steal. 2,000 back plus dealer cuts. PHIL- Sell this guy a subbie and make his day!

Thanks Trekchick. I will check out the Jeeps, but they tend to get pricey pretty quick.

I'm a Subaru Legacy GT guy. But most folks like the Outback. I have a 05GT wagon with over 300hp and Michelin PA2's for Winter driving. This is my 3rd GT Wagon since 98. Great cars for Winter. I bought the first one after seeing what most of the locals drive in VT. After driving my 92 Honda Civic up there for 5 years.

Buy a Legacy or Outback put good Snow tires on it and you'll be happy. Trust us. We all have this thing figured out.

I drive to VT every Winter weekend to ski over 65 day's a season.

Are you saying that the prices on these comparisons are similar? A BMW, an Audi and a RAV 4? I wouild rather have an Audi over a RAV 4.

The reason to consider a RAV over a Subaru Outback is AWD vs 4WD, but if the price is the same, hell get the Outback.

Yeap, it'll come down to price. I'll def. be looking at the Outback too.

For the Outback, is the VDC worth it? I see that for 2007 a lot more models have it.

Keep all car suggestions coming. Our budget is in the $25k~28k range.

I don't like the Escape just because it's a really old design. It hasn't changed in years. The Compass is too new, same for the Ford Edge.

We're looking at RAV4, CR-V, Forrester/Outback. Will check the Jeep.

Regardless of what car we get, we'll be putting snow tires on it.

Thx again.

The VDC is good, IMHO, it is not worth it concidering all you have to get with it. Above triple digit speeds, it comes in handy, but for day to day driving it is not worth it.

AWD systems usually do not have a transfer case, that means you cannot lock the 4wd system. They will always have a bias and will not give you 50/50 traction, they are basic setups and more often than not use a simple viscous coupling, more advanced systems use electronic actuators to vary the slip in this coupling depending on driving conditions (wheel slippage detected).

Now a true 4WD can be as simple as a single gear transfer case which locks the front and rear wheels in a drive mode, to a full featured transfer case which offers all the benefits of AWD plus the added functionality of a true locked 4WD system (including low gears for difficult terrain or pulling a buddy out of a stuck). 4WD systems are heavier but are stronger. In the case of the new Grand Cherokee (which probably has the most advanced 4wd system on the planet) electronics and mechanicals are used to make the thing virtually unstoppable. It can operate fully locked, or with slip, it senses yaw, skidding, and transfers power as needed to any of the 4 wheels at varying degrees....best of all, with exception to the 4WD low setting, it does all of this automatically. Oh, and 4WD systems are more expensive....power and ability costs money. Think of AWD as 4x4 light, and 4WD as the real deal.

XJguy