EpicSki  ›  The Barking Bear Forums  ›  Skiing Forums  ›  Ski Gear Discussion  ›  "82 mm skis should be good enough for a foot of snow"

"82 mm skis should be good enough for a foot of snow"

#31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
I would bet you could do equal or better on groomed with a 186LP than you could on the RX9. And then take that same LP everywhere else on the moutain and be VERY HAPPY.
You know, if I lived out west, I think I would be springing for an LP.
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#32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv
...This is where you light to normal sizd people have a big (pun intended) advantage over us 200 + Lbs skiers...
EXACTLY !!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv
...Maybe I should just lose weight!
That makes two of us. :



Tom / PM
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#33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
I was thinking more along the lines of 208 87/67/77 (just checked 'em), being enough surface area for a 145 lb guy (my fighting weight , I'm 165 now), not along the lines that a modern fat ski wouldn't be better at floating.
Whoops. I just noticed that I made a typo in my post about your / our old GS skis. To calculate the area, I actually used a waist of 68 mm (ie, one mm more than the 67 you measured), not the 58 mm number that I accidentally typed in my previous post. So, the area I stated in my previous post should be pretty much right on the mark for your skis.

Tom / PM
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#34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
You know, if I lived out west, I think I would be springing for an LP.

MTT/Ghost, whats an LP?

Cheers,

Michael
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#35
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Would this be the Line Prophet?


Not to derail this thread but would the 90 be the one to choose or go for the 100 if you want to ski anywhere on it?
What do you ski on MTT?

 
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#36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ
Would this be the Line Prophet?


Not to derail this thread but would the 90 be the one to choose or go for the 100 if you want to ski anywhere on it?
What do you ski on MTT?
LP= Dynastar Legend Pro Rider.
I used to have the 186's
Now I ski the 194's
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#37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
LP= Dynastar Legend Pro Rider.
I used to have the 186's
Now I ski the 194's
Thanks , i was wondering .Now i am researching

 
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#38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicsMan
Speaking of which, one of the things I most love about fats is this ability to turn 6 inches of fluff over a hard, miserable cut-up base into velvet.
Now here is wisdom....

The heaviness of the complexity fuels the force behind the dart that hits the mark.

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#39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
since we are in geek-dom here, your B5's are 76mm under foot.
Ahhh! I've been Geeked!

76 mm it is!

This difference with our beloved Epic Geeks, is that they can rip on rails as well as their slide rules (am I dating myself here?).
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#40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato
Ahhh! I've been Geeked!

76 mm it is!

This difference with our beloved Epic Geeks, is that they can rip on rails as well as their slide rules (am I dating myself here?).
I recall having once seen a slide rule, I think it was in a museum or something.

The heaviness of the complexity fuels the force behind the dart that hits the mark.

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#41
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Interpreted differently, it's a question Geeks through the ages have asked themselves: "Am I dating myself - again?"
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#42
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I prefer a micrometer!
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#43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie
Now, if you could just provide us with a formula so we can punch in certain numbers -- weight, ski dimensions, typical skiing speed (slower here on East Coast) -- that will enable us to figure out what ski would give us sufficient flotation, that would be awesome!
Now that is the $$$. Great thread.
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#44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv
This is where you light to normal sized people have a big (pun intended) advantage over us 200 + Lbs skiers.

At 160 Lbs an 82mm X 177mm ski will probably float in powder while still being manageable on manmade snow.

I would need to own a 69mm ski (think RX9) & a 105mm ski (think Gotoma) to cover all conditions at Snowbird. During a typical week, I could be 60% soft snow and 40% hard snow, with a little bit of both on most days.

Maybe I should just lose weight!

Cheers

Michael
if you know what you looking for the Gotamas are good all the time.

but on some days the metrons were blast to remember what G-force felt like. even got to ski some very deep snow on them and they didnt sink outta of curiousity how much float does a 162, 172 metron B5 have and a 183cm Gotama

"its not that you cant ski the bumps, its that you cant ski and the bumps prove it"

pbfootnit.blogspot.com/ <<< the start of something good!

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#45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA
if you know what you looking for the Gotamas are good all the time.

but on some days the metrons were blast to remember what G-force felt like. even got to ski some very deep snow on them and they didnt sink outta of curiousity how much float does a 162, 172 metron B5 have and a 183cm Gotama
Bush...,

I also love high G-force carving; I'll always have a Fischer Worldcup RC for those hard snow days.

You can calculate the surface area of any ski by putting the length & sidecut dimensions in the PhysicsMan's Sidecut Radius Calculator . There also have been formulas in these threads to calculate pressure by factoring in the skiers weight. Interesting stuff.

Cheers,

Michael
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#46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv
This is where you light to normal sized people have a big (pun intended) advantage over us 200 + Lbs skiers.

At 160 Lbs an 82mm X 177mm ski will probably float in powder while still being manageable on manmade snow.

I would need to own a 69mm ski (think RX9) & a 105mm ski (think Gotoma) to cover all conditions at Snowbird. During a typical week, I could be 60% soft snow and 40% hard snow, with a little bit of both on most days.

Maybe I should just lose weight!

Cheers

Michael
So, if I'll go down to 156 lbs then my next-ski-the-RX8-I-am-still-waiting-for will take me floating on deep snow? ;-) BTW, what is deep snow? Never seen any… :-(
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#47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyal_Shahar
So, if I'll go down to 156 lbs then my next-ski-the-RX8-I-am-still-waiting-for will take me floating on deep snow? ;-) BTW, what is deep snow? Never seen any… :-(
Hi Eyal,

Your soon-to-arrive RX8 will handle most conditions well, but you will need something wider in truly deep snow. If you want to try deep powder, just rent a Dynastar legend 8000, Head Monster iM 82, Atomic Snoop Daddy or Volkl AC4. At 160 lbs these will float you better than a Legend 8800 will float me at 200 plus Lbs.

My plan for next year is to use my existing skis on hard snow and demo on deep snow days.

Cheers,

Michael
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#48
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Deep soft snow = step off your skis and you are up to your armpits or deeper.
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#49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
Deep soft snow = step off your skis and you are up to your armpits or deeper.
Damn you Ghost .Summer is hard enough.
Any one out there on the Southern half of the planet in this stuff . Take a turn in my name please

 
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#50
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Much of the discussion in this thread centers on the amount of float available in powder. Width really makes skiing possible when we enter the realm of wind buff and breakable crust. If you break through the surface in these conditions, disaster can quickly ensue. A heavy skier, or lighter skier moving fast making high angle turns, is at considerable disadvantage in breakable crust, but can get floatation with a wide enough ski. For me, the magic width in these conditions is over 100 mm at the waist. A frustration for me this past winter was learning my V-Mantras (94 mm) intermittently and unpredictibly broke through the crust; but taking out a pair of Gotamas (110) in the same conditions solved the problem (but left me looking for more stiffness). I can ski light powder on any width ski, but dust on crust, breakable crust, and variable crud really calls out for a tool that can produce a predictable amount of float and stability.
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#51
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Cirque -

Your comments are right on the mark & should be enshrined as a stickey.

I've also been saying for years that you can ski nice untracked powder on just about any ski, but the real value of fatties comes in when the conditions get sketchy.

It's too bad most people still don't realize these advantages. At least you don't hear fatties being called "cheaters" too often any more.

Tom / PM
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#52
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Fallacy #2

Previously in this thread, the discussion centered around the observation that for a skier to rise upwards in a layer of deep soft snow, the skis must produce an upward force (i.e., “lift”) greater than the skier’s weight. Thus, to realize the full benefits of purchasing fatter skis, heavier skiers (say, heavier than 180 lbs) shouldn’t stop in the traditional mid-fat range (mid 70’s – low 80’s), but go all the way to 90+ mm skis.

It recently occurred to me that there is yet another fallacy embodied in the oft-heard statements about not considering any ski wider than a mid-fat, e.g., “82 mm should be good enough for an east coast skier”.

Skiers thinking about buying a pair of fatter skis will often say that since they only see a couple of deep snow days per season, there is no reason for them to go beyond mid-fats. The real problem is that most of these folks make this statement even though they already own a quiver of groomer skis that are perfectly adequate for several inches of new snow, i.e., the usual snowy day in the east. Thus, they really only need a new pair for those rare days when it dumps a foot or more, or for soft, deep spring slop. It almost like these folks think that there is some sort of algorithm that says that for every soft 12” snow day per season you encounter, you are allowed to add a mm to the width of your new skis, but you shouldn’t go beyond this width on penalty of death.

It just doesn’t work like this. If you are in deep soft snow, it doesn’t matter whether this is the only time you will see such conditions this season, or it’s the 40th time. It’s still deep soft snow. Thus, skiers who follow such reasoning and who don’t even bother looking above mid-fat widths when thinking about purchasing a new pair of skis will likely see limited benefits from their new skis in exactly the conditions they bought them for, particularly if the skier is of above average weight. Yes, an 82 mm pair will be somewhat better in soft snow than the 68 mm pair they already own, but the overlap in performance envelopes is greater than it needs to be. In other words, they could do MUCH better than this.

In defense of those skiers who don’t consider skis wider than mid-fats, I do see one valid reason that a 180+ lb guy might use a mid-80’s ski: Namely, that they just never intend to use more than that one pair of skis, at least on any one day.

I would argue is that if a skier can bring two or more pairs of skis to the mountain, and has the possibility of selecting the appropriate pair in the morning, or switching skis during the day, their second pair should be 90+ mm skis (at least for skiers > 180 lbs) and forget about the mid-fats. This way, they will get the benefit of fat skis when they need them instead of skiing on a pair of mid-fats that are not particularly good either on the groomers or in the deep.

Just my $0.02,

Tom / PM

PS – When I refer to a fat ski, I don’t mean a specific number of mm. Rather, I mean a width that allows the skier to float given their weight and typical skiing speed. This might be an 75 mm ski for a 120 lb average speed skier or a 150 lb hot-shot, or a 95+ mm ski for a big guy that likes to ski at moderate speeds. This is why I always paired mm with weight in the above post.
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#53
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OK folks how about a pair of 165 Salomon X-hots for 6', 175 lbs, moderate speed and low edge angles?
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#54
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For what it's worth: At 215 lbs. I have found my Atomix REXs (84 mm waist) to work extremely well in a foot or more of snow in a 184 (alpine) and in a 191 cm (A/T), especially if it is a day or two old. I have fatter "powder" skis for dump days but would not hesitate for a moment to ski the mid-fats in real deep snow. The fatter you go the more forgiving they are for mismatched weighting, but I have had some of the best powder days ever on my REXs, which in my limited experience appears to be the best "all-mountain ski" I have ever been on.

Some of the best powder days I have ever had were on 198 cm 10EXs (84 waist) during a storm cycle that dropped 5 feet over 3 days. My friends were all on shorter wider skis but they couldn't keep up with the cruising ability of the longer mid-fats. When I am on my shorter fatter powder boards I am usually chasing them in those conditions. IMHO it is the flex and not the width that makes a good deep snow ski.
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#55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot
For what it's worth: At 215 lbs. I have found my Atomix REXs (84 mm waist) to work extremely well in a foot or more of snow in a 184 (alpine) and in a 191 cm (A/T), especially if it is a day or two old...
Why do I have this sneaky suspicion that you are one of those guys whose spedometer starts at 35 mph - you can admit it - you are among friends - no one is going to pull your pass.

In all seriousness, if one goes fast in wide open spaces, as Mudfoot suggests, you don't need width cuz you'll be generating enough lift, but length and a nice flex is mighty handy to smooth things out and keep from going over the tips.

Cheers,

Tom / PM

PS - How did you do on your Rex's compared to folks on longer fatties, not just shorter ones? If you beat them as well, you should be spankered'
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#56
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Because of the storm cycle I described it was "terrain ignortion" on the entire mountain and the usual speed limits did not apply, but I was very suprised at how the 84 waisted 198 were way more stable at speed in deep snow than my 190 (90 waisted) K2 AK Launchers. My friends were all in the 175 lb range and on 180s with 90-100mm waists, but I was skiing much faster than usual and way more comfortable at speed than they were.

Like Jean Claude Killy said when asked why he likes to ski powder, "Because you can go very very fast (insert French accent)."
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#57
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I understand that a 95mm or wider ski will be needed to float a large person in powder. But, can a big ski truly carve on firm snow? No, and I understand the question misses the point. Big skis are meant to be skied like a snowboard in soft snow. A big ski floating in powder forms a shelf of snow underfoot, and the skier surfs the fluid powder. Turns are the product of ski flex, not sidecut. Yes, I get it!

But what about those hours or sometimes days when no new snow exists? I am I supposed to slide around like an unschooled intermediate and never carve a turn again??

And I'm undecided If I should own a Cheater GS ski and rent a wide ski on powder days or own a wide ski and rent a carver on hard snow days?

Well, the issue I have comes down to theory verses experience. Here is the theory: If the skier is above 180 Lbs, he will need more than 88 mm underfoot to float in soft snow, including crud. This implies that the midfat ski will not perform as intended in the kind of off-piste conditions found above 8000 ft.

Also, the midfat is not providing the quickness or edge-grip of a recreational ski-cross or race model on hard snow. Wider skis loses responsiveness on hard snow.

So, the midfat can be criticized for being neither “fish nor fowl”, so to speak.

However, I have skied powder on a variety of narrow and midfat skis with very good results. I even consider my old Salomon Supermountains (110-78-100mm) to be a great powder/crud/bump ski that can carve long turns easily. When I tested the AC4 & Monster iM88 & iM77 last year at Alta, they all were great fun.

So my personal experience conflicts with theory.

Given my size, I may need more than two skis. I would travel with 2 pair out to Vermont (one cheater GS for ice & one fatty for warmer days) and two pair out west (one versatile on-piste carver & one fatty).

I just don't see a fatty as an everyday ski for an ex-racer who likes to carve.

Cheers,

Michael
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#58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv
But, can a big ski truly carve on firm snow? No,l
I am going to disagree with that statement, in fact given time I will take videos of carving on fat skis.

"its not that you cant ski the bumps, its that you cant ski and the bumps prove it"

pbfootnit.blogspot.com/ <<< the start of something good!

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#59
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Based on my totally subjective personal experience and skiing with at least 10 other people over the years that have all had Rossi Bandit XXXs, I think it was the limit (85mm waist) for the best powder ski that could also carve in any condition. Once they got wider than that the carving performance seemed to disappear.
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#60
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Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA
I am going to disagree with that statement, in fact given time I will take videos of carving on fat skis.
Yeah...there was about 9 things in there that needed responding to...I couldn't figure out how to do it without a very involved reply so I just gave up....

I love the 'slide around like an unschooled intermediate....' comment...classic!!

I just want to end by saying I want to ski with mudfoot!!
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