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KISS my angulation

#1
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One of the people asked me to elaborate on ankles and angulation from Bonni's KISS post. Here are my thoughts, and I don't pretend either science or dogma here. This is just my feeling and observation.

I understand angulation as a movement that anticipates and/or compensates for lateral movement of the ski. Call it lateral balancing--just as you move forward on a forward moving ski, you can move sideways on a sideways moving ski (or a ski that is about to move sideways) while still maintaining effective edge angle.

I think there are a couple of effective ways to do it, depending on who you are and how much you need and how fast you're going. I also think the simplest way to see it is to see an angle between two axes in the body--lower leg and upper leg axes can create an angle at the knee, etc.

For simplicity lets just say the body can tip in and an out at the major joints of ankle, knee, hip, waist, and neck (forget about elbows here). I'm not going to get into the biomechanics--like you have to rotate your femur to bend your knee inwards--I get that.

If I'm properly aligned in my boots, I believe the angulation will be available to me through all of these joints, but will primarily be in the knee, hip, and waist for skiing.

The ankle is a poor source of angulation because it is all wrapped up in the boot, and might as well just keep being involved in the idea of tipping the skis to their edges to penetrate the snow and create the carving platform. To try to angulate with them (create a lateral angle between the lower leg and the foot is a bit of a hard thing to do--even out of the boot). To do so, in the boot, would have the effect of of trying to make the actual boot angulate which is pretty much non-sense.

The neck is involved, because no matter what amount of tipping the body does, the head has to stay level for any hope of good skiing. But I think this has more to do with inner ear balance and vision than biomechanics--although I wouldn't defend this belief.

So the knee, waist, and hip are the primary joints, and the conventional wisdom says that the waist and hip carry the big loads and the knees are for fine tuning. However, Ron LeMaster recently told me, and I think I see this, that hot skiers these days are creating pretty fierce angles at their knees, especially at the initiation. Try it. It's pretty cool and aggressive. It gets the edges singing early without rushing the body into the the turn.

Three other points:
1. All most people need to think about is to keep the torso vertical and shoulders level as the legs edge. (KISS Bonni!?)

2. There is not nearly as much angulation as there used to be. I really don't think I ever tip the plane of the shoulders downhill, with the exception of very steep turns from a traverse, in order to prepare for a quickly accelerating release of edges downhill. Occasionally with a student who leans inward, I'll try to create that sense of "pinch" on the downhill side of the waist, but not so often. (Although I do know great ski instructors who spend a lot of time with this.)

3. Angulation changes throughout the turns and with different types of turns. It seems like there's more angulation in short turns--or at least the torso stays more upright while the legs tip in. In long turns, I believe the plane of the shoulders can be tipped inward at the start and begin to level through the middle and belly of the turn. I agree with Martin Bell, who said at the academy that "angulation is definitely not dead". (Also, notice that when the plane of the shoulders is tipped inward, and therefore so is the torso, the outside arm usually goes up and outward. I think this is to compensate or "cover" for lack of angulation at that moment.)

One thing for sure, the angulation you need is not a set amount. It is determined by the edge angles you hold and it is a movement which accompanies edgeing and pressure variations rather than precedes them.

Have a nice summer. We close on Sunday.
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#2
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Thanks for this KISS, Weems. The language is easy to read, easy to visualize, easy to comprehend.

All it needs is pictures!!! (8x10 color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one)

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#3
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So while I am unsure if it is or isn't angulation. The ankle rolling certainly does shift the pressure to one side of the foot or the other. That being said, I am being taught that the pelvis moving out of the old turn and into the new turn should be the main focus. At least in my skiing.
The joints bending to maintain an edge angle is different than thinking about using them to create tipping. It seems to fit with the focus on the pelvis' location relative to the skis.
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#4
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Ankle "rolling" does that for sure, JASP. But that's not the same as angulation (as I understand it).

I agree with what you're talking about in terms of moving the pelvis forward and across. The focus--whether ankles, pelvis, or knees--kind of depends on what you respond to. I've had students who were completely oblivious of the idea of rolling the ankles against the boot shell (probably because of poor fitting boots), but who did really well moving the knees towards the new turn. Ultimately, wherever your focus, the whole system moves forward and across to engage the new edge.

I'm a little confused about your last sentence. To me "maintaining an edge angle and tipping are the same thing.

Thanks, Bonni. I'd send the pictures, but the only ones I have are pornographic!
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#5
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I think it gets very confusing to bring up the idea of knee angulation, ankle angulation also, in a disscusion about simple angulation. If we simply define angulation as happening in joints that can ab/adduct, and/or flex lateraly, sideways into the the middle of the turn, which in skiing are the hips and spine, then we won't get sidetracked into trying to understand what the heck knee angualtion is. Knee angulation in my book, is simply femur rotation. It is the movement of the femur in the hip socket that drives the flexed knee lateraly. Something that never really made funtional antomical sense to me is the tech term knee angulation.

I'm sure I'll take some heat for this, but how can we keep things simple and concise if we claim something (angulation) is a movement that happens lateraly, and then include joints that do not articulate (flex) in a lateral plain?

As I see it, the difference between femur rotaion that comes as a result of following the skis lead and the term knee angulation is the difference between allowing and causing. Causing this to happen intensly is what I understand LeMaster is talking about.

Heck, Just bend sideways into the turn at the hips and waist, keeping the body long from our outside foot to the inside shoulder and you have functional angulation.

No disrespect intended here gang. But this has always been one of my pet peaves. Skiing terms that go against sound biomechanical priciples. Later, RicB.
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#6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
I think it gets very confusing to bring up the idea of knee angulation, ankle angulation also, in a disscusion about simple angulation. If we simply define angulation as happening in joints that can ab/adduct, and/or flex lateraly, sideways into the the middle of the turn, which in skiing are the hips and spine, then we won't get sidetracked into trying to understand what the heck knee angualtion is. Knee angulation in my book, is simply femur rotation. It is the movement of the femur in the hip socket that drives the flexed knee lateraly. Something that never really made funtional antomical sense to me is the tech term knee angulation.

I'm sure I'll take some heat for this, but how can we keep things simple and concise if we claim something (angulation) is a movement that happens lateraly, and then include joints that do not articulate (flex) in a lateral plain?

As I see it, the difference between femur rotaion that comes as a result of following the skis lead and the term knee angulation is the difference between allowing and causing. Causing this to happen intensly is what I understand LeMaster is talking about.

Heck, Just bend sideways into the turn at the hips and waist, keeping the body long from our outside foot to the inside shoulder and you have functional angulation.

No disrespect intended here gang. But this has always been one of my pet peaves. Skiing terms that go against sound biomechanical priciples. Later, RicB.
Fair enough RicB. But how, then, do you linguistically differentiate between the femur rotation that pivots or steers the skis and the femur rotation that helps in edgeing the skis while creating that balancing angle at the knee? I understand your need for biomechanical accuracy, but we're also talking about linguistic usages here that help us translate thought to action.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with, "Heck, Just bend sideways into the turn at the hips and waist, keeping the body long from our outside foot to the inside shoulder and you have functional angulation."

Your whole discussion seems to diminish the function and versatility of the knees. My teaching skiing experience suggests otherwise.
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#7
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this discussion is very insiteful.when the informed wring out their thoughts and put them on the table. the novice to this terminology can learn much. ricb which. lemaster book would you recommend to enter this world and to have as a reference in years to come ?thanks to all that contribute. those of us that want to learn , are very grateful.

 
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#8
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Weems,
Creating as in the movement originating in the angulating joint(s). To me maintaining implies it is in response to the body changing location relative to the skis. I have always thought it could happen either way. Hmm... more to think about before hanging the skis up for the season.
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#9
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I once read a book on skiing, in the early 70s. The book was old, found at a yard sale, probably from the 60s or maybe the 50s. I think it may have been written by a woman. It had some line drawing illustrations. I don't recall any complicated stuff like "angulation", but id did have something called the "comma" shape. When viewed from the front or rear the skiers body adopted the shape of a comma, like this, " ," . The illustrated shape is demonstrating angulation in a right turn viewed from behind the skier. It seems pretty simple.
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#10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
Weems,
Creating as in the movement originating in the angulating joint(s). To me maintaining implies it is in response to the body changing location relative to the skis. I have always thought it could happen either way. Hmm... more to think about before hanging the skis up for the season.
Gotcha. Thanks.
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#11
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Ghost, the comma was exactly the word used to describe this in those days. It was because the look of the body--a curve from head to toe. It arrived on the scene just about the time that wedeln (shorts wiggly turns) and reverse shoulder (counter rotation) arrived. The countering and the angulating are very much tied together. Years ago, Horst Abraham suggested that they were so much a part of each other that we might accurately call the whole pattern "twisting angulation".

GarryZ, now that there is a little time, it's fun to be able to discuss this stuff. I also appreciate RicB's insights.
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#12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
Fair enough RicB. But how, then, do you linguistically differentiate between the femur rotation that pivots or steers the skis and the femur rotation that helps in edgeing the skis while creating that balancing angle at the knee? I understand your need for biomechanical accuracy, but we're also talking about linguistic usages here that help us translate thought to action.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with, "Heck, Just bend sideways into the turn at the hips and waist, keeping the body long from our outside foot to the inside shoulder and you have functional angulation."

Your whole discussion seems to diminish the function and versatility of the knees. My teaching skiing experience suggests otherwise.

Well, I think I am diminishing the role of the knees. What does the knee really do but Flex like a hinge? We see it as a reference or focus point, but again what movement happens or originates at the knee?

How I differentiate I guess, would be on how the movement is directed in the kinetic chain, or where it starts. Meaning. whether it is hip down to feet (steering), or feet up to hip (edging). The former overpowers the ski snow interaction while the latter doesn't. I always liked the older tech manual differentiation between steering and guiding, with my understanding being that guiding is manipulating the ski on the snow without overpowering the ski snow interaction. As in quick, intense feet up femur rotation, like skiing a flush in slalom, or short, intense RR turns.

Personaly, I find that what often gets diminished in our movements as we teach skiing is the role and movements needed in the hips and waist. I find myself more and more saying to ignore the knees and focus on what the ankles and hips are doing and how they are working together. The knees will fill in the connection automaticly. At least that's my experience.

Yeah, my attemp to simplify angulation probably missed it's mark, but what do you think about the rest? Later, Ricb.
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#13
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Though the inversion/eversion of the ankle joint is almost inperceptable to an observer it is to me a very viable movement that should be allowed inside the boot to facilitate finer balancing movements.

Years ago I had a pair of vacuum formed Superfeet footbeds made by Sven Coomer himself. These footbeds seemed to lock my ankle inside the boot and I felt a noticable inability to use my ankles for balancing. locking the ankles up seemed to cause a slower reaction/anticipation to imbalances because the knees had to be used more to try to fine tune what would normally be accomplished in the ankles. Granted this may have been a personal preference (I have a fairly rigid arch) but I know I share this philosophy with many I have talked with. I prefer to have the ablility to articulate my ankle inside my boots.

Consiquently, part of my footbed making philosophy has been to allow the ankle to move a bit yet be supported. I have noticed in the evolution of the Superfeet product, they have inserted a softer layer if foam in the arch area of their footbeds... hmmmm? I believe it wise to allow the proprioceptors in our feet the opportunity to do what they do and allow the ankle to be the first to make minute adjustments for fine balancing movements while using the knees and hips to make grosser adjustments and anticipatory movements.

just one opinion.

 "Givin' you the Edge" www.snowind.com Synergy coaching/alignment

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#14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman
Though the inversion/eversion of the ankle joint is almost inperceptable to an observer it is to me a very viable movement that should be allowed inside the boot to facilitate finer balancing movements.

Years ago I had a pair of vacuum formed Superfeet footbeds made by Sven Coomer himself. These footbeds seemed to lock my ankle inside the boot and I felt a noticable inability to use my ankles for balancing. locking the ankles up seemed to cause a slower reaction/anticipation to imbalances because the knees had to be used more to try to fine tune what would normally be accomplished in the ankles. Granted this may have been a personal preference (I have a fairly rigid arch) but I know I share this philosophy with many I have talked with. I prefer to have the ablility to articulate my ankle inside my boots.

Consiquently, part of my footbed making philosophy has been to allow the ankle to move a bit yet be supported. I have noticed in the evolution of the Superfeet product, they have inserted a softer layer if foam in the arch area of their footbeds... hmmmm? I believe it wise to allow the proprioceptors in our feet the opportunity to do what they do and allow the ankle to be the first to make minute adjustments for fine balancing movements while using the knees and hips to make grosser adjustments and anticipatory movements.

just one opinion.
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#15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
Yeah, my attemp to simplify angulation probably missed it's mark, but what do you think about the rest? Later, Ricb.
I don't think you missed the mark. I think it's all fine. I just think that feet up/hips down and knee focus/no knee focus--these are all points of view that can be used. I think the problem I have run into is relying exclusively on one belief system/focus at the expense of others tends to always lead me to a blind alley in my own performance and teaching. This is one of the original drivers behind the development of the diamond.
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#16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman
Though the inversion/eversion of the ankle joint is almost inperceptable to an observer it is to me a very viable movement that should be allowed inside the boot to facilitate finer balancing movements.

Years ago I had a pair of vacuum formed Superfeet footbeds made by Sven Coomer himself. These footbeds seemed to lock my ankle inside the boot and I felt a noticable inability to use my ankles for balancing. locking the ankles up seemed to cause a slower reaction/anticipation to imbalances because the knees had to be used more to try to fine tune what would normally be accomplished in the ankles. Granted this may have been a personal preference (I have a fairly rigid arch) but I know I share this philosophy with many I have talked with. I prefer to have the ablility to articulate my ankle inside my boots.

Consiquently, part of my footbed making philosophy has been to allow the ankle to move a bit yet be supported. I have noticed in the evolution of the Superfeet product, they have inserted a softer layer if foam in the arch area of their footbeds... hmmmm? I believe it wise to allow the proprioceptors in our feet the opportunity to do what they do and allow the ankle to be the first to make minute adjustments for fine balancing movements while using the knees and hips to make grosser adjustments and anticipatory movements.

just one opinion.
I totally agree with you. I really use the ankle a lot, and don't want it frozen shut in any direction. All I'm saying is that I don't think it has much of a role in angulation as I have defined it. The ankle has a very powerful role in moving the boot in all kinds of ways. But, I assume you would agree, the range of movement in the ankle, although critical, is relatively small (say, relative to that of the knee).
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#17
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agreed! Just don't take that little movement away from me!

 "Givin' you the Edge" www.snowind.com Synergy coaching/alignment

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#18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
I don't think you missed the mark. I think it's all fine. I just think that feet up/hips down and knee focus/no knee focus--these are all points of view that can be used. I think the problem I have run into is relying exclusively on one belief system/focus at the expense of others tends to always lead me to a blind alley in my own performance and teaching. This is one of the original drivers behind the development of the diamond.

Heck I don't know Weems. Can we seperate science from persoanl belief systems? Probably not. I do agree with you that we should try to not let our own personal beliefs get in the way of helpng our students. When it comes to helping students make connections, I will do anythng, and say anything to help them make a connction. I'm known for this in my locker room. I guess this is why one of my awards this year was the "I make stuff up" t-shirt! Later, RicB.
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#19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
Heck I don't know Weems. Can we seperate science from persoanl belief systems? Probably not. I do agree with you that we should try to not let our own personal beliefs get in the way of helpng our students. When it comes to helping students make connections, I will do anythng, and say anything to help them make a connction. I'm known for this in my locker room. I guess this is why one of my awards this year was the "I make stuff up" t-shirt! Later, RicB.
We do agree. I make stuff up too. I learned years ago listening to many top racers try to describe what they were doing, that 1) they really weren't very accurate, and 2) if I acted as if they were accurate I skied a lot better. Language is really imprecise, and as I understand it, so is science when it comes to really describing the chaos and turmoil in fluids (snow). So what we're left with is metaphors and analogies (isn't there a difference?) to try to coax the body/mind/spirit system into great skiing.
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#20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
Thanks, Bonni. I'd send the pictures, but the only ones I have are pornographic!
I'll go back and read the posts after this one of yours, Weems, but I can't progress till I say,

Post those Pictures!!!

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#21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
I find myself more and more saying to ignore the knees and focus on what the ankles and hips are doing and how they are working together. The knees will fill in the connection automaticly.
Couldn't you also forget about what your ankles, hips, and knees are doing and just make your skis do what they need to do to get you to go there? Does this make for ugly skiing, or will all that pull together in time without a whole lot of analysis?:

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#22
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Sorry guys,
Comma shape = KISS
inversion/eversion heel-up knee-down pivoting steers with rotated femurs ain't simple.
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#23
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that was a kiss time out so they can talk their own language, they are multilingual and it is hard for them . we're going to have to give them time to learn this new language or we are going to have to learn theirs.probably both.i believe what bonni said was, dammit i just wanna ski, i'll figure this out as i go along. hang i n there bonni they are really trying hard. some of it is really making sense. so many new phrases., , like weems said we got all summer. this will keep us all busy

 
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#24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonni
Couldn't you also forget about what your ankles, hips, and knees are doing and just make your skis do what they need to do to get you to go there? Does this make for ugly skiing, or will all that pull together in time without a whole lot of analysis?:
IMO, you really can't if you want to avoid forming bad habits. What you describe will probably lead to tipping, or a turn like this:

As my caption says, I am over-weighting the inside ski, and am not applying the force necessary to make the skis turn as much as I would want them to. I get away with it becuase I am on a pair of soft 12m skis here. It would not work as well on SL skis.



In contrast, here is a good turn from the same video clip where I am angulating, applying more pressure to the outside ski, and pressuring the tips.


This is a far more powerful turn, and is what I try to strive for in my skiing. (A little more hip countering would help, but that is outside the KISS discussion )

I hope this helps, though I am certainly no instructor.
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#25
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dd223, I like your first turn better.

Hey, Bonni. I agree with you. Half the time, I tell my students to make the ski travel such and such and so and so way in the snow. This is from the Purpose corner of the diamond. Often, when they are clear about what they really want the ski to do, they come up with very fine technique. On the other hand, if you don't know what you want your skis to do in the snow, all the tech in the world won't help you.

Ghost, comma shape is okay, but it's not really as accurate a picture as it was before carving was so easy to do. It was created with a pivot skid feet together approach and it was a little soft for what we are really doing. I preferred sperm cell standing on it's tail to comma. Whatever you use as a metaphor, is fine. The key to these metaphors is whether people understand and can translate it into movement or not. This is why I like Bonni's approach. I think it's easy to figure out what to do if you know what the ski can/should do.

However, Bonni, it doesn't always work without tech coaching. But it does clarify the tech coaching you get because you can see the application.
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#26
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Thanks, weems. I was trying to pretend there was a fallaway gate there, but w/e. I like the second one better.
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#27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223
Thanks, weems. I was trying to pretend there was a fallaway gate there, but w/e. I like the second one better.
Well they're both good turns. I think the alignment in the first is more powerful, and I often think turns like the second one are over angulated. However, as you hint here, they're two different turns and if you don't know where they're going, it's hard to judge precisely. It seems like the first one is going to take you further across the hill, whereas the second one may finish a bit earlier.

I'll restate. I don't like the first one less than the secone one!
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#28
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You might as well watch the vids, makes it easier to see what is going on. Same video, but one is 1/4 speed and the other is real-time. I was going for somewhat of an SL race turn, so finishing it faster is a good thing.


http://nnskiing.org/Arc2.avi
http://nnskiing.org/Arc2 slomo.wmv
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#29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223
You might as well watch the vids, makes it easier to see what is going on. Same video, but one is 1/4 speed and the other is real-time. I was going for somewhat of an SL race turn, so finishing it faster is a good thing.


http://nnskiing.org/Arc2.avi
http://nnskiing.org/Arc2 slomo.wmv
I can't get the avi to play on my machine, but from the other one, I feel that you angulate and counter quite strongly on all your left turns, while squaring off and tipping more with the whole body on your right turns. I like your right turns better, but I'd bet you'd profit by finding a symmetrical "in-between" here.

You're a good skier. You understand what the skis should do. Nice turns.
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#30
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Just so we're clear, you advocate tipping over angulation?

By your logic, this (Rocca) is over-angulated.




BTW, thanks for the props.
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