What is the best ski jacket????

I have herd from some other web sights that Cloudveil's quality has fallen in the last few years but I will chose not to comment as the stuff of theirs i have I have not had long enough for the vote to be in yet.  I have an RPK I like the fact that it has pit zips I like the little snitch chord it has on its neck to tighten up the collar a bit, the hood you can zip off.  I don't think the collar is tall enough. and the hood is almost to large.  But the gor-tex soft shell is way warmer than you would think that it is for how thick it is. 

I had a Patagonia Premo Flash  the main reason i got rid of it was the lack of pit zips But the collar and hood where a good size and sealed around your head well.  As for Patagonia's environmental record that is one of the reasons i try NOT to do business with them now.  I just cant give money to a compony that openly give some from every purchase i make from them to a cause i am against.  I know that is hard to find in the outdoor clothing industry it seems but i Just don't want to read 5 pages in there catalogs about how drilling for oil in the Alaskan National wild life refuge will kill every thing up there when i am paying $5 a gal for diesel fuel in all of my equipment just to keep my business ruining. (sorry for the rant)

Dose any one have any info about Cloudburst that I see in an lot of Cloudveil stuff?

I believe Cloudburst is a variation of Dermizax membrane (I think it isa  solid polymer membrane, unlike GoreTex or eVent). 

I have no intent to start a political discussion, but, with all due respect Patagonia's efforts do not contribute significantly to high gas prices; our purchases of massive amounts of Chinese-made cr&p on the other hand do contribute by raising the global energy demand and the price of oil with it.  As for ANWAR, as T. Boone Pickens wisely noted: you can't drill your way out of this problem....

I also don't want to get into a shouting match on energy policy; BUT, realistically, as has been proven over and over again, the very high prices last summer had nothing at all to do with supply and demand of oil  - it was pure speculation on the behalf of the financial entities - the same group of people (e.g. investment firms, hedge funds, etc.) that got us into our current mess regarding the mortgage securities and over-leveraging. I don't remember the actual numbers, but, last summer the oil speculators were controlling the market more than the actual producers.  If you have any doubt of this, look at the price at the gas pump over the last couple of weeks, particularly, this past week - there is a monstrous disconnect between actual costs and the supply and demand.

I think I have just fallen off my soapbox...... back to skiing. Oh wait, ski season is over - I'm bummed ..... REALLY BUMMED!!

Nick

correct Nick! Greed and market manipulation.

Well they can feel how they want to feel about there political and environmentally issues..  I just don't like reading 5 pages worth of there propaganda in every catalog i get.  I know there are people that buy from them for that reason..  but I chose not to do business with them for that reason (and i know there are way fewer of me)   And have never thought Drilling there was the only answer it is one of them and should not be excluded from reducing our dependence on foreign oil. My point is why should we be sending those jobs overseas to the country's that don't like us when we got it here and that would be giving Americans the jobs.  ( apologize for the hijack and this is the last i will speak on the matter in this thread)

But i will say Patagonia makes some bomber gear there Primo flash pants are good with reinforcement in all the right places.   I hear there Primo down jacket it good and warm as well

I say get an Oakley jacket.  They are not even nearly as expensive as these other brands, and they are easily better.  I personally think a jacket needs to be somewhat roomy to be able to keep warm.  The other brands are always tight compared to Oakley, Sessions, even Spyder venom and certain north faces.  These also keep snow out better since they cover more of your body. 

Aegix makes armored jackets (built-in crash pads). Bomber jacket overall plus might save your bacon (saved mine). They didn't sell jackets this past season (08-09) but will be back in the marketplace (AFAIK) for 09-10 season. I picked up a 07-08 Aegix Hux this year for $92.

For pics/infor, see old thread:

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/60924/new-aegix-armored-jacket-the-hux 

Wow fin, this is a thorough comparison.

I like your review on the Koven!

http://www.epicski.com/products/cloudveil-koven-plus

I will throw my .02 in here for sake of gleaning information and sharing the little that I know.

When I found my Killtec jacket, I loved it, the fit, the pocket placement, snow skirt/sleeves, and mostly the water proof yet breathable fabric.

I have skied in this killetc for two seasons and have been thoroughly happy with it, until Big Sky.  I could not use the hood over my helmet, which had never come up until the powder days we enjoyed there.

I used my Marmot, which is considerably lighter weight, on the last two days in Montana, which has a hood that easily goes over my helmet.  I Love this jacket and wish I'd used it more throughout the season.  I'm still not sure it will have the warmth I need for uber cold days, which leads me to the hunt for a jacket that has similar features with some added warmth. 

Admittedly, I like the back of the jacket to go lower to avoid the dreaded back draft, which has been an issue with most jackets I've owned, due to being long waisted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finndog 

Great post!  Thanks.

 

I just received the Arc' Sidewinder AR and the Cloudveil Koven PLUS (there is a Koven, and a Koven Plus) and here's my .02

 

Sidewinder: http://www.arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?Mens/Jackets-Vests/Sidewinder-AR-Jacket

great workmanship, clean, typical utilitarian Arc' design. 2 large hand pockets, one chest and one sleeve pocket with clear window. One internal neoprene pocket which is very small. Powder skirt, stowable hood. FABRIC: Gore-tex Pro shell. Cut is pretty full and covers butt.

 

I like this jacket very much and rate it highly but here's the good and bad and I wish list

 

WISH LIST:

I wish it had a larger internal pocket that was on the opposite side of the external chest pocket. If you use both, it's bulky.

 

I wish the chin flap was backed witha fleece or soft fabric, It's just the plain material.

 

I wish the neck was about 1" higher, I hate neck gaitors and if it was a little higher, I could duck my chin and nose under the collar.

 

I wish I could somehow secure the flap if I don't zip the jacket all the way up. I can just imagine this piece of material slapping me in the face as I am skiing (maybe this isn't true but it seems like this could happen)

 

What I Like

 

Great workmanship, clean lines, no wasted materials and lightweight. Great zipps, Lifetime warrenty great resale value. ProShell is bombproof but (see below). Also, great overall design and fit. Not overly snug, allows room to layer.

 

What I don't like

 

the stowable hood is very stiff and with a helmet, interferes with neck movement, it rubs and pushes on the base of the helmet. Not huge issue but worth mentioning.

 

Proshell fabric is too stiff and krinkly, just too loud.

 

could really use another internal pocket or stow pouch.

 

Internal pocket is on the same side as the external chest pocket - too bulky to use both at same time.

 

 

Cloudveil Koven Plus- http://www.cloudveil.com/backroom/mens/jackets/koven+plus+jacket--CV04601/

Excellent jacket, clean, well constructed. Excellent hand-feel, Great fit and unique features.  2 very large hand pockets, one chest pocket, one sleeve pocket by hand. Internal pocket on opposite side of chest pocket!, two decent sized mesh stow pockets. Strech EV3 and Schoeller C-Change fabric. Fixed hood. strategically placed 100wt fleece on back and chest areas. two Passive internal vents at shoulders- allows heat exchange- nothing open and completely wind proof.

 

Wish List: Higher collar- same as above

I wish the did away with the Zipper flap on the front of the jacket.

 

What I like:

fantasitc, innovative materials, soft- slightly stretchy (2-way) EV3 fabric in key areas, Schoeller C-Change materials are very cool and actually work. Very soft and very quiet! feels like a comfortable pair of jeans.

 

chin area is fleece lined! Zipper is covered from inside and not an issue- very soft.

 

Strategically placed 100wt fleece in back panel and chest.

 

vents on top of shoulders-meshbacked thin panels allow heat and moisture exchange)-h20/wind proof 

 

Two-way front zipper.

 

Pockets are well thought-through and functional- with the exception of the sleeve pocket.

 

Hood works very well and can be cinched up and partially rolled. fits over helmet well with one complaint (see below)

 

Great cut to the jacket, covers butt well and is bit lower in front which I like.

 

Clean and funtional.

 

Not everyone has it.

 

What I don't like

 

No need for the front zipper flap

 

Hood is great but to put it up over helmet, you need to partially unzip. Once on, it won't fly off in breeze.

 

Sleeve pocket- down by hand, not really funtional, Ski pass can be scanned through in very limited resorts but what else does anyone use for? (Please don't say maps...)

 

I went with the Koven Plus.  For me just a better fit- functionally speaking. No wrong choice; both are great jackets.

Edited by Finndog - 5/8/2009 at 05:44 pm GMT

For the sake of comparison, here is comparison details on fabric permeability (there is a number of subjective reviews floating around, so it makes sense to put a more quantitative spin on that):

Cloudveil (Cloudburst fabric) is about 25% less breathable than Arcteryx (GoreXCR/ProShell);   Best breathable fabric on the market (eVent) beats GoreTex XCR by about 60%, so it is about twice as breathable as Cloudburst  (I believe it is similar to Dermizax used by Spyder, Kjus and Phenix).  Unlike GoreTex or Event, Dermizax is stretchable, which allows them to make tighter-fitting garments.  GoreTex/eVent is still the champ when you look at light weight breathable fabrics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexzn 

Cloudveil (Cloudburst fabric) is about 25% less breathable than Arcteryx (GoreXCR/ProShell);   Best breathable fabric on the market (eVent) beats GoreTex XCR by about 60%, so it is about twice as breathable as Cloudburst  (I believe it is similar to Dermizax used by Spyder, Kjus and Phenix).  Unlike GoreTex or Event, Dermizax is stretchable, which allows them to make tighter-fitting garments.  GoreTex/eVent is still the champ when you look at light weight breathable fabrics.

 

 

Thanks for throwing some data in, but I'm having a problem understanding what you are saying.  You said that the Cloudburst fabrix is 25% less breathable than GoreTex.  You then say that eVent is 60% more breathable than GoreTex.  So how would eVent be twice as breathable as Cloudburst?  Wouldn't it be more like 75% more breathable?  Or, did you mean to say that Cloudburst is 25% more breathable than GoreTex?

Then, at the end, you say that GoreTex / eVent are still the best lightweight breathable fabrics.. which contradicts what you just said..

CJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJO 

 

Thanks for throwing some data in, but I'm having a problem understanding what you are saying.  You said that the Cloudburst fabrix is 25% less breathable than GoreTex.  You then say that eVent is 60% more breathable than GoreTex.  So how would eVent be twice as breathable as Cloudburst?  Wouldn't it be more like 75% more breathable?  Or, did you mean to say that Cloudburst is 25% more breathable than GoreTex?

 

Then, at the end, you say that GoreTex / eVent are still the best lightweight breathable fabrics.. which contradicts what you just said..

 

CJ

So, for simplicity that GoreXCR has a breathability rating of 1, then Dermizax (Cloudburst) would have a rating of 0.75 and eVent a rating of 1.6.  1.6/0.75=2.13, so about twice as breathable.  Does it make more sense now? 

Really, the best lightweight breathable fabric now is eVent, so if you are buying  a jacket for hiking, go eVent.  It may be too lightweight and more importantly too breathable (read- too cold) for skiing.  GoreTex pretty much hits the sweet spot, but Dermizax is not that far off either. 

I only ski one jacket, a Marmot Goretex, three layer XCR I think. (a very heavy, tough gore fabric) Awesome.

I have an Arcteryx Schoeller soft shell, and it looks cool, but I'm not impressed. It fills no purpose, except that it looks so good. When it's cold out, it's not windproof enough. When it's warm out, it doesn't breath well enough.  A sweater for a few bucks would do the same, very little, except look real good.

(first, noting breathability, Alexzn has it right: unless you are hiking, too much breathability is just too cold on a day under 25 degress or so, especially on a lift, had to return a Mountain Hardware Ascent for that reason).

Back to the good points of the Marmot, points that have been mentioned above here and there, but this jacket has it all.

First: removable hood, absolutley essential as stowaways always suck, and if you don't use the hood...?

tons of huge pockets, room for lunch, water, tools, camera, sunglasses, pass, and the all-improtant: etc., with bomber, foolproof zippers.

pit vents that go through, no dumb mesh.

a tall, comfortable collar, maybe the most essential foul-weather element in a jacket, because as has been said, you want to tuck in on the chair and skip all the gaitors and masks.

bulky, long design, great for layering even a down jacket underneath, and covers your butt, so to speak. (I did buy it at least a size too large on purpose.)

classic colors and nothing fancy, covert and low-key.

durable and lifetime warrantee.

about 250 days in it so far, and it still looks and works great (in pouring rain I'm dry) It'll have 350-400 days by season end next year, and I'll lament to have to replace it when that day arrives (though it will be a Marmot, that's certain.

if I could show you the jacket without me in it, I definitely would.

.http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2274/3535362490_22709e09fc_o.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexzn 

 

So, for simplicity that GoreXCR has a breathability rating of 1, then Dermizax (Cloudburst) would have a rating of 0.75 and eVent a rating of 1.6.  1.6/0.75=2.13, so about twice as breathable.  Does it make more sense now? 

Yep- thanks... and I usually think of myself as being good with math :)

CJ

 

are you quoting Dermizax EV? http://www.torayentrant.com/dermizax/der_002.html

There is a pretty big difference between them.  I think a non-porous fabric (like EZ and Event) offers superior performance over pourous materials like Gore-tex. It's provides better wind-proofness and better moisture management since it occurs at the molecular level and not by permitting moisture to penetrate the fabric. It is also extremely durable, with over 80 points after 100 washes.  also, proshell is very stiff and "krinkly" just feels too stiff. The EV is a very soft, almost softshell feel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finndog 

are you quoting Dermizax EV? http://www.torayentrant.com/dermizax/der_002.html

 

There is a pretty big difference between them.  I think a non-porous fabric (like EZ and Event) offers superior performance over pourous materials like Gore-tex. It's provides better wind-proofness and better moisture management since it occurs at the molecular level and not by permitting moisture to penetrate the fabric. It is also extremely durable, with over 80 points after 100 washes.  also, proshell is very stiff and "krinkly" just feels too stiff. The EV is a very soft, almost softshell feel.

 

Yes, I believe it is Dermizax EV that I was referring to.  I disagree that non-porous fabrics are better than porous, in fact the data show just the opposite.  Current best breathable fabric- eVent is a pure porous membrane.  GoreTex is a combination of a porous membrane and a very thin non-porous layer, hence the breathability is a bit worse, and Dermizax, Ultrex or whatever else is out there is worse yet.  None of them, by the way, is as bad an old Columbia OmniTech (also a solid membrane), which is almost as breathable as a plastic bag.   If you look at the data you showed, the permeability is highly dependent on the test they used.  In reality, the upright cup test is the most realistic for moving evaporating moisture.  (The inverted cup has water in direct contact with the fabric- if I drenched in sweat to the point that my shell is completely covered in liquid, I don't really care how breathable it is- clearly not breathable enough).   So I would trust the upright cup data. 

I also don't quite understand what molecular level moisture management actually means.   Strictly speaking solid membranes move moisture essentially by solution-diffusion mechanism which is inherently less efficient than pure diffusion in a porous membrane.  Just think about it as trying to get through a semiclogged pipe- it will be always slower than an open pipe...  (For the scientifically-inclined, here is a better explanation: the mean free path of a water molecule is always shorter in a solid membrane than in a porous membrane, hence the diffusion is always slower.)

One big advantage of solid membranes is that they can almost always be made stretchy (a good example is again Cloudburst).  GoreTex can be made soft (i.e. the misnamed GoreSoft Shell) but not stretchy. E-Vent does not stretch either.      

As Finndog pointed out the bane of porous membranes is dirt and sweat that clogs the pores, solid membranes do not clog and they can be washed a lot easier.   If you have ever seen the eVent fabric care label is says in large letters: "wash me often"- this is to keep the membrane clean and the pores open.  As I said, Gore solves this problem by putting  a thin layer of a solid membrane over the porous membrane- they loose some breathability by doing that, but in return they do have to worry about pore clogging.    

OK, this is probably too much information, so I will stop .