MA Practice Video glovin1

#1

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3/30/05 at 9:58am

dchan
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Posting video for your MA practice.
rglovin hopefully will be able to give us more info about the video.

Video

Let's break this down to Skills and blends. No corrective action yet.

1. Balance. For-aft, lateral, etc
2. Edge. When and where does it occur? enough, not enough, how?
3. Rotary. When Where and how. Originates where? Upper body, lower body, femur, feet, etc.
4. Pressure. When, where and how? is it managed, created, etc

For those of you that are LIII's trainers, examiners, Let's not give an MA but try leading those candidates questions about their MA descriptions.

#2

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3/30/05 at 1:17pm

T-Square
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dchan,

Love the concept you have for these.

Thanks for posting them. Now I'll give it a whack. The bouncyness of the video is somewhat of a drawback. I think I'm getting seasick watching it.

First of all, good lower to mid level intermediate skiing. The skiier appears to be having fun and is negotiating the terrain with confidence.

Balance

This skiier is too far aft. The snow is coming predominately off the rear of the skis. Looking closely it appears that sometimes the tips are off the snow. Also the hands and arms are loose at the skiier's sides. This tends to pull the skiier to the rear. Lateral balance is straight up and down. The skiier is not commiting down the hill with the CM.

Rotary

The skier is using a stem christie type turn. The new outside ski is pushed out to initiate the turn. After initiation there is a quick turn of the skiis creating a Z turn. The shoulders and upper body tend to preceed the lower body into the turn. There appears to be a little "windup" before the turn that then ripples down to the skis.

Edging

The edging appears to managed only along the bottom "half" of the turn. Edges are set after the skiier has changed direction. Edging in this case is more of a defensive move to change direction quickly.

Pressure

Pressure is released (by a small upward movement) at the beginning of the turn with the stem and quick turn of the skiis. Pressure is then rapidly increased as the edges are set along the bottom of the turn. Pressure is not really managed in this skiier. It is a result of the hard edge set/defensive move.

Overall Impression

Overall this is the classic Z turner. Very little upper/lower body separation. There is no flow with the "gravity dance." This skiier is still defensive and has yet to learn how to "let go" and move down the hill.

None of us is as smart as all of us.

#3

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3/31/05 at 2:51am

tdk6
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What is an MA?

Feedback on video!
I would like to comment on the following issues:
He doesent know how to read the terrain properly.
He doesent know how to turn properly.
He doesent know how to use his body in a dynamic way.

Lots of issues here!
First of all, the line he is selecting lacks commitment and rhythm. Since he has no clue of how he can benefit from the terrain he has no clue where to turn.
Second, he initiates his turns after a small upper ski stem by leaning into the turn with his upper body, rotating it slightly and transfering this movement into his hips causing his hips to rotate outwards quite a bit and finally after passing through the leggs it ends up in turning the skis. This causes his tails to skid and his turns to become Z-turns.
Third, his whole body is completely inactive. He should get his hands forwards, lean forward against his boots with his shins, counter a bit with his upper body and activate upper and lower body separation. Bend your knees, flex your knees, move your knees I would shout to him repetedly. Shift your weight to your upper ski earlier and drift your turns in a wider rounder and cleaner arch.

Balance, is not all that bad.
Edge, no edging really.
Rotary, lots of it and in a bad way.
Pressure, no real applied pressure IMO. Just pressure caused by gravity.

#4

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3/31/05 at 4:07am

Pierre
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In the top of the video how far back is this guys inside foot going? Does the amount of travel in his inside foot match the amount of rotation?

#5

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3/31/05 at 6:17am

dchan
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onyxjl and tdk6,

MA is Movement Analysis.

T-Square has the idea.
In this "exercise" We are trying to learn how this skier moves and isolate the movement skills.
By learning specifically what this types of skills this skier is using or lacking it helps us as instructors learn how to correct or assist a skier progress.

I specifically requested no teaching or things to work on so the focus would stay on the Movements.

Good Question Pierre, Thanks

DC

#6

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3/31/05 at 11:59am

tdk6
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Ok, sorry dchan

Rotation
I would say his rotation originates from his hips. He throughs out the hips at the same time as he is bringing his upper body into the turn to compensate. Maybe he is triggering it by bringing out the stem but Im shure this is just a way to swing out the hipps. The stem if done correctly should be an independent move and its an easy way to bring in your hipps into the turn while compensating your balance by countering with your upper body.

Balance
He almost loses his balance at the end of the video when he hitts some softer snow and when his skis dont skid anymore. Also he has a hard time holding his balance when hitting some moguls earlier on in the video. This guy cannot carve. Offcouse not, because its like riding a bike, you need to be able to stay in balance. His lateral balance is totally off. Everybody talks about fore and aft balance but lateral balance is much overlooked. He needs to apply upper and lower body separation and counter. This is the whole key to skiing. To have a strong stance and to be in balance. Arms play a central role as well and he is not using them in the right way both fore and aft and lateral.

Edging
No applied edging here. Edging only as a result of something else.

Pressure
No applied pressure here. Pressure only as a reslut of gravitational forces.

#7

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3/31/05 at 12:11pm

onyxjl
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I deleted my post until I can get a chance to watch the video again with the MA purpose in mind. I did not real the initial post carefully enough...

#8

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4/1/05 at 8:11am

learn2turn
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Balance: skier is back a bit not moving actively into the turn or down the hill as all. Lateral balance is an entire body motion with no upper/lower body separation, tipping.

Rotary motion: in the initial turns, rotary comes from the upper body, shouldler/arms and works down. In the latter turns, there's more rotary coming from the skis but it's mostly coming from a stem motion of the ouside ski.

Edge control movements: No edging at the beginning of the turn, defensive spray of snow at the end of the turn; a little better at the end of the run;the terrain is a little flatter with less bumps and the skiing is skiing less out of the falline which may put him more in his comfort zone so he's skiing better.

Pressure control movements: Looks like there's a bit of up-unweighting at the start of many turns. No lateral leg movement (which results in tipping as mentioned in balance.) I don't see much in the way of flexion/extension to absorb terrain changes although it does look like the skier is planning his line to minimize having to deal with the bumps.

#9

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4/1/05 at 8:22am

Pierre
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What is this guys rear DIN set at?

#10

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4/1/05 at 6:04pm

Pierre
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This is an excellent video for movements analysis because you have to look closely to really see what is happening.

Notice there is a big difference between the first half of the video and the second half. Look at the tip lead on the inside ski.

Look for movement patterns in the first half of the video that might be inconsitent with alpine gear. Look for movement that might indicate this skier is higher level than intermediate and might call into question his background.

Last, pick out what you feel would be the best thing to would work on in a lesson?

#11

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4/4/05 at 5:44am

learn2turn
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

This is an excellent video for movements analysis because you have to look closely to really see what is happening.

Notice there is a big difference between the first half of the video and the second half. Look at the tip lead on the inside ski.

Look for movement patterns in the first half of the video that might be inconsitent with alpine gear. Look for movement that might indicate this skier is higher level than intermediate and might call into question his background.

Last, pick out what you feel would be the best thing to would work on in a lesson?

I gotta confess that in the tiny video I'm having a hard time seeing a tip lead.

I do see a noticable difference between the first and second half of the video. I attributed it to an easier line and slightly less pitch.

As far as what to work on, I'd like to see this skier on similiar pitch but groomed flat without the little bumps. Then I'd likely work on getting him to do something with his feet to start the turns. Maybe side-slip into pivot slips, patience turns, etc.

So, what's your take?

#12

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4/4/05 at 6:00am

Pierre
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Quote:

Originally Posted by learn2turn

As far as what to work on, I'd like to see this skier on similiar pitch but groomed flat without the little bumps. Then I'd likely work on getting him to do something with his feet to start the turns. Maybe side-slip into pivot slips, patience turns, etc.

So, what's your take?

Not a bad approach. Would you start this skier in the alpine position or the telemark posititon?

#13

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4/4/05 at 8:15am

rmglovin
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If it helps, this skier is on alpine equipment on a moderate blue run, steeper at the top than about half-way down. The video was taken in late October 2004 (early Tahoe season). There is a slight sidehill.

#14

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4/4/05 at 8:20am

Pierre
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Quote:

Originally Posted by rmglovin

If it helps, this skier is on alpine equipment on a moderate blue run, steeper at the top than about half-way down. The video was taken in late October 2004 (early Tahoe season). There is a slight sidehill.

From looking I never would have guessed that. Thanks for the correction.

#15

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4/4/05 at 8:40am

Pierre
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Quote:

Originally Posted by rmglovin

If it helps, this skier is on alpine equipment on a moderate blue run, steeper at the top than about half-way down. The video was taken in late October 2004 (early Tahoe season). There is a slight sidehill.

I have reviewed the video again knowing that you are not on telemark gear. You appear to be hunting for the tongues of the boots. That being the case I have to question the boots you are in and your alignment. Your knees appear way far forward of the normal position in alpine, to the point I was near certain I was looking at telemark in the top half. Its still hard to tell from the video but I would look for boots to large, lifting heels, to soft a boot, to much forward lean or tight ankles with soft boots or to much forward ramp.

#16

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4/4/05 at 8:43am

learn2turn
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

Not a bad approach. Would you start this skier in the alpine position or the telemark posititon?

Well I know very little about telemark but being that he's on alpine equipment, I'd use purely alpine positioning.

I did take one telemark clinic a few years ago through our ski school; it was a bunch of alpine instructions taking the clinic given by a couple tele instructors. I seem to recall that on modern tele gear you can go through same centerline turns-- wedge, wedge-christie, opentrack parallel that you would on alpine equipement. Someone said that those turns, and then the tele-turn are all included in the L-1 tele pin requirements.

Figuring that all, I think the alpine stance should be perfectly doable as the starting point. If they guy where int+ on tele and brand-new to alpine, I might even start him doing wedge turns on alpine gear to get used the the gear difference and then move rapidly up the centerline to open track parallel.

#17

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4/4/05 at 8:52am

Pierre
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Quote:

Originally Posted by learn2turn

Well I know very little about telemark but being that he's on alpine equipment, I'd use purely alpine positioning.

I did take one telemark clinic a few years ago through our ski school; it was a bunch of alpine instructions taking the clinic given by a couple tele instructors. I seem to recall that on modern tele gear you can go through same centerline turns-- wedge, wedge-christie, opentrack parallel that you would on alpine equipement. Someone said that those turns, and then the tele-turn are all included in the L-1 tele pin requirements.

Figuring that all, I think the alpine stance should be perfectly doable as the starting point. If they guy where int+ on tele and brand-new to alpine, I might even start him doing wedge turns on alpine gear to get used the the gear difference and then move rapidly up the centerline to open track parallel.

I think this would be an excellent approach to a crossover telemark clinic.

#18

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1/3/06 at 3:18pm

dchan
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BUMP for the new season

#19

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1/4/06 at 8:54am

jess
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I was working with some people on MA this past weekend, so I’m in a question asking kind of mood. There are some great observations here; I’m just going to push a bit further. The clip may not answer these questions, but may spur thoughts and discussion.

When I’m doing MA I try to establish a cause and effect relationship. A friend once told me to look for the disease, instead of just the symptoms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Square

Balance

This skiier is too far aft. The snow is coming predominately off the rear of the skis. Looking closely it appears that sometimes the tips are off the snow. Also the hands and arms are loose at the skiier's sides. This tends to pull the skiier to the rear. Lateral balance is straight up and down. The skiier is not commiting down the hill with the CM.

Great start. Why is the skier back? You have some effects, what is the cause? Are all the joints evenly flexing or are some more than others? Could there possibly be an equipment issue at work?

What about stance width, does it stay the same? Why or Why not? Does that even matter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdk6

Balance
He almost loses his balance at the end of the video when he hitts some softer snow and when his skis dont skid anymore. Also he has a hard time holding his balance when hitting some moguls earlier on in the video. This guy cannot carve. Offcouse not, because its like riding a bike, you need to be able to stay in balance. His lateral balance is totally off. Everybody talks about fore and aft balance but lateral balance is much overlooked. He needs to apply upper and lower body separation and counter. This is the whole key to skiing. To have a strong stance and to be in balance. Arms play a central role as well and he is not using them in the right way both fore and aft and lateral.

You are making some good observations, I’m looking for the big red flag. It is this flag that tells you as a skier/instructor what you should work on. Some other questions are:

He is loosing balance in soft snow and bumps what does that tell you?

What are you seeing that tells you the lateral balance is totally off? Is there a relationship between lateral balance and upper/lower body separation?

What about his arms is helping or hurting him?

Why can’t he carve?

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