Is Gore-Tex Still King?

I'm kind of surprised that no one here has mentioned eVent. Also, all this talk about XCR is outdated. Pro Shell is where it's at when it comes to Gore's best offering.

eVent is vastly superior to XCR. It hasn't taken much of a hold in the US, but you can find 66 Iceland shells here and there with the technology. It is so breathable that pit zips are unnecessary. I have yet to compare Pro Shell with eVent but would not be surprised if eVent ends up being better than Pro Shell. Maybe it's my backpacker bent, but I think you guys have spent too much time obsessing over the latest Volkls and have missed out on the laminate frenzy.

I am Looking to get a new jacket this year and i can get a prity good deal on Padagona stuff And i was looking that there Primo Flash jacket and was wondering if anyone had any experiences or feedback on there H2No barreer stacked up?

Deja-vu. I thought Uncle Crud was back untill I saw the date of the post.

Back to topic. If the weather is too rough for Gortex XCR you shouldn't be out in it.

Gore-Tex Pro Shell is just re-branded XCR. They make some decent things, but Gore spends more money convincing manufacturers to use their stuff than they do on R&D. eVent is far, far more breathable than Gore-Tex, while still maintaining complete waterproofness.

Both of these membranes use the same basic technology: they're sheets of polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE, otherwise known as Teflon) stretched to create little holes to allow water vapor through. The difference between them is in the treatments applied to prevent dirt and body oils from contaminating the membrane. Gore uses a thin sheet of solid polyurethane and a liner fabric to protect the membrane. This obviously blocks a lot of the original holes that provide the breathability, and it absorbs and retains water. eVent developed a method to treat the PTFE membrane without using a water-absorbing element like polyurethane while retaining the open-pore structure inherent in the material. That's why it breathes so much better.

the greatest challenge for dressing, the situation that requires total waterproof and breathable fabric, that we have around Tahoe is this: Storm has just arrived and you want to be on the hill to see what develops. but here is the catch, our storms often come in warm and get colder through the day. if it comes in way warm, you are talking about taking runs in rain or sleet, hoping for the cool down to occur while you are on the hill, thus being in the right place at the right time (after being in the wrong place at the wrong time for a while). If your outer layer fails with respect to waterproofness, you are going to be getting wet to the skin just as the weather drops 10 degrees and it begins to puke, snow. Then the skiing is turning epic and you are too cold to hang. totally scr--ed. I was at a local shop that explained Goretex to me like this: is you ski every day, if you don't bag out when it's ugly, because you can't bag or won't, (which includes sking the above mentioned circumstance) don't risk it, get goretex.

Yeah, but it's the same story as ever -- where do you buy any kind of range of products using eVent, without resorting to overseas websites?????

Omni-tech soft touch

I'm going to put my two cents in for some of the lower end "waterproof/breathable" fabrics based upon a recent elbow water submersion test.

Oneil Freedom series: EPIC by Nextec Amphibious Cotton 10,000/5,000
Descente Bat Shell: Oxkin fabric 10,000/10,000
Columbia Powderkeg Parka: Omni-tech soft touch Performance 3000/2000

The omni-tech was by far the best- no water leaked in any seams for extended periods of submersion, and from jumping around in the jacket a bit, I'm fairly convinced that it is plenty breathable.

The Oneil jacket leaked right through the fabric fairly quickly, and the seams were even worse- plus the water soaked into the fabric and took a while to dry out instead of beading up. These guys should stick with wetsuits!

The descente jacket was better than Oneil, but leaked fairly quickly at the seam running the length of the arm to the armpit. Water did bead up though, and the fabric seems pretty durable.

My tentative conclusion is that so much of the marketing done by these companies is a lot of hype, and the numbers don't mean much. I suggest anyone buying new outerwear go through the same kind of test that I did so you can see for yourself. I have goretex pants courtesy of the Air Force, and they are awesome, but I'm not convinced that other fabrics haven't repeated the same level of performance. I think in the end you have to test it our for yourself, or rely on someone else's experience- I wouldn't believe anything the manufactures say about ratings, etc as in my case the 'lower end' jacket proved far superior.

On the lower end omni tech seems to be great- the only concern I have is it's durability, but I'm taking my chances as I can't afford a gore-tex jacket, and the other jackets in my price range, though advertised as much better than the omni-tech, clearly are not! Plus it comes with sealed waterproof zippers, a fleece inner liner for use on really cold days, or alone in the spring, and I like the soft/light feel of the fabric versus the stiff/bulkier feel of many other ski jackets. It's well designed throughout in terms of fit, hood closure, pocket placement, etc.

I'll add another material to the list you probably can't get in North America: http://www.paramo.co.uk/en-gb/garmen...MOCKASPIRAMENS

I find Gore-Tex and similar membranes too warm in almost any weather condition if I do any aerobic-like activity (skiing, hiking, ...). I have a Paclite jacket for spring-autumn hiking, but even that's too warm most of the time.

I've used the above jacket in heavy, wet Whistler snow with a base and mid-layer and I was warm and dry. In warmer and dryer climates in Europe, I used it with only a base layer with similar success.

I have had both great and poor experiences with Mountain Hardwear. I had the conduit bibs that had no water repellency whatsoever. They would get wet on the lift when it was snowing. I purchased these probably 8-10 years ago, and last year was the final season. Other being wet, they are still in excellent shape. My favorite favorite jacket of all time was my mountain hardware tempest. It was a light ripstop nylon treated with or was conduit with a very thin brushed liner. That jacket originally designed I think as a rainjack/windshirt, ended up being my year round jacket, no problems at all with getting wet, highly breathable, and amazingly light and comfortable. The zippers conked out and now they don't make it. I don't have alot of experience with skiing in softshells, but I have one of their featherlite ziptees, that is by and large another one of the best things I have ever owned. I run or bike in it with a single layer every morn and it has been pretty water repellent. It does lack breathability somewhat, but great for non-full day outings.

I am a true believer that less is more when it comes to a ski shell, Gore Tex is sweaty and gross and in the long run makes you colder than a lighter less heavy duty shell. I got to preview some of the new stuff coming out next season and if you can wait until then, I would, amazing amazing shells to be had next year.

RRP£275! You've forgotten that our dollar is worthless these days.

Nice jacket tho!

You think the £275 is expensive in its own right, or is this in the context of the weak Dollar?

Ski-specific jackets in the UK can be in the range of £400-£600 which I think is a complete rip-off. Europe is similarly priced.

that is not true...they re-designed the inner most layer. this reduces weight significantly and allows for better breathing...so pro shell is not just a rebrand of xcr

"In the autumn of 2007, Gore-Tex XCR (eXtended Comfort Range) is to be replaced by Gore-Tex Pro Shell, as the latest version of the well known waterproof and breathable fabric, originally developed over 30 years ago by W.L. Gore & Associates. It retains the familiar '3-layer' construction (a microporus ePTFE membrane laminated between protective outer and lining fabrics), but the lining layer has been changed from the long-used knitted 'scrim' (with a more open, bulkier structure) to a new woven 'Micro Grid Backer' fabric (which is lighter, thinner, smoother, but more durable). However, some 2-layer Gore-Tex products (where the ePTPE membrane is laminated to just the outer fabric, and a free-hanging liner fabric used) may be also labelled as being 'Pro Shell' by some clothing manufacturers.

What are it's benefits?

• It is lighter and less bulky than Gore-Tex XCR, reducing overall garment weight and bulk.
• The lining is more abrasion resistant and less likely to 'catch'.
• The lining is smoother and therefore glides over other clothing layers more easily.
• W.L. Gore also claim an increase in breathability over XCR.

What are it's drawbacks?

• It is it more expensive per meter than XCR fabric, and has therefore lead to an increase in garment prices (£10 to £50).
• The lighter, thinner lining gives the 3-layer fabric an overall thinner and lighter feel, which can make the fabric feel less durable (even when the same durable outer 'face' fabrics are used).
• It is still possible to get wet in a Pro Shell garment due to inherent limits in breathability (when working hard, etc), and 'holes' that let in water (cuffs, neck, open pockets, etc)."

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/news/ar...N/4480/v/1/sp/

I tend to disagree. I have an older high end columbia jacket with omnitech. I've never had any problems with it since I rarely fall while skiing and I hate skiing in above freezing weather. However, I loaned the jacket and ski pants to my cousin who tried skiing for this first time in WI.

submerssible? are you kidding?!? ..I tried to run water over it in my sink...it deflected 90%...but 10% or so did soak in and I felt it on the inside

Within 3 hours, he was completely soaked from head to toe. The omnitech material is garbage. After multiple falls, the fabric does not hold up and it just gets soaked...which makes it heavier..and then it freezes : It wasn't even snowing or raining. It was int he 20's and there was no slush either...there is no excuse for this crap...i think my addidas windbreakers has better waterproofing ability that that junk


What a piece of garbage...goretex proshell is the way to go...i had a really bad wipeout and i ended up sliding on my back for a 100 feet or so after a bad landing, and not even one drop soaked in...everything was deflected

I agree with eyecon82 here. I own a columbia omni-tech jacket, bought 2 years ago, and this season I bought an Arc'teryx pro shell jacket. firstly the pro shell is so much lighter , and WAY better is windier conditions. The omni was fine for the first season, but by the second it was definitely starting to seep some water through. Obviously my pro shell is a lot newer, but no problems yet. I use my pro shell for a number of tours already, and only a few times have I bothered to open the armpit zips.
pro shell, completely waterproof, very breathable, very light, windproof
omni, leaks now, did so after 1 season, not as breathable (but ok), weighs a lot more, wind gets through when its a high wind

Before spending lots of money on a breathable jacket I'd recommend tracking down some of the work of Leeds University's Centre for Technical Textiles:
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/textiles/CTT/index.html

For example, have a read of this:
http://www.ilasco.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page&id=26


Re Paramo: I don't have any of the stuff myself but I have several friends who swear by it for cold and wet days (eg. Scotland in winter). They certainly appear quite comfortable when they roll in dripping at the end of a miserable day on the mountains.

Hi Guys:

Event has the best waterproofness and breathability of all laminates. I have a jacket made by Pearl Izumi with Event. The breathability is almost 30% better than XCR if you look at the performance charts. REI is coming out with a line of outdoor/Event jackets this fall. You will not be disapointed.

how does it compare to the gore-tex pro shell 3L? that's the real test

Ever hear of something called DWR? Google is your friend.

The best products will have DWRs that will take more abuse, but none are magic, and all need maintenance eventually. Once they do, it doesn't really matter much which fabric you have.

If I can get a year out of a garment without reapplying DWRs, I'm doing well. This goes for cheap house brand PTFE stuff right up through my fancy-schmancy Arc'teryx stuff. There are a bunch of key benefits to the fancy stuff, but the idea that water repellency is one of them is just asinine. All reasonably well made garments pass that test if you maintain them properly.

my old 'normal' gore tex jacket is still holding up fine..after 9 years...no dwr necessary

You don't wear it much then, apparently.

I had a 3L Gore shell stolen earlier this year that I'd been wearing since about 99 or 2000. It worked great. Water beaded up champ-like. Of course, I'd been washing it with Tech Wash and TX Wash In once a year or so and only wearing it about 15-25 days a season.

Jackets hold up a lot longer than pants. The seat of pants and the area just above the knee gets a lot of wear. Also, I tend to wear ski pants a lot more than jackets which I change out more often for different conditions. In any case, pants start soaking water in after a year, maybe two at the max.

i wore it maybe 20-25 days out of the year while skiing. i never had any problems..what brand did you have?

tnf mt here

Marmot. Had some Marmot pants from that era that I grew out of before I wore them out. I also had a TNF pair that got warrantied twice in two years, and some other stuff. The only nice manufacturer of that era I didn't toy with is Patagonia. That was when I was skiing 100+ day seasons in the northeast, hiking for turns 40 plus days a year in the spring because it was all I could do. Where I skied it was probably straight up raining at least 10-15 of those days. I was young and motivated to make turns.

Now I do all my resort skiing with house brand fabrics. Much less annoying when chairlifts rip things, things get dirty, etc.

I did have to send in my tnf mt for warranty twice due to loose stitching, perhaps they treated it there? not sure..but it worked out awesome for me and the omnitech didn't...just my experience

Key point is well made house brand stuff. Columbia is now fully committed to the Wal Mart lifestyle. Probably does suck.

Very Interesting discussion...

I am going to buy a new jacket and pant after skiing in my EMS 3 layer Goretex that I bought in 1994!! Waiting for end of season sales. Appreciate those who have posted their suggestions on a hardshell and softshell by manufacturer name and model. Any other suggestions out there? How about some EMS or REI in house suggestions. Thx.

FWIW I believe Kjus is making clothings with Thinsulate..

About DWR's...and a somewhat lame explanation....
Your coat fabric has millions of tiny hairs that stand up, when these get dirty they lay down and your garment stops beading. The outer material clogs and your garment stops breathing. SO now you say you are getting wet when in fact no sweat vapor can escape and so you think the garment is leaking. Wear a rubber coat during an activity, you will not get wet from the outside but you will be soaked on the inside.
Wash and DRY your coat and this will raise the hairs, or bring the DWR back to life. The Drying is the key part of this, washing alone will not rejuvenate your DWR. Do it on low to med heat. Todays DWR's can last up to 20 wash cycles.

Columbia does make a bunch of inexpensive ok jackets, but they also make some that can compete really close to the best. I picked up the Titamium GOLF PLAID PRO pants this season, 20/20 Laminate full stretch material and they are the bomb. I'm in the PNW where we get white rain. I've had them in all PNW conditions, not a single problem, only rants and raves. However, most Titamium stuff is 10/10, which is great for most mortals, obviously not good enough for the superhumans we all are.


On the soft shell front there are a couple of types. Some have a laminate on them so the breathability will decrease, but this make them waterproof. Others are just the soft shell, highly breathable, water/wind resistant. These too are treated with DWR's.

Scholler is for the most part a textile company and about 4 years ago they made the best soft shell materials. But as time goes on others have caught up.

From what I hear EVENT is the up and comer and will be taking no prisoners as the leader.

Ok, please tell me that I'm wrong if I have mistaken some facts, but please do it politely........

Well, I just went skiing in this crazy Chicago weather. It is 0 degreees. -30 wind chill with 30-40mph winds

I was wearing the arc-teryx pro shell...and wow...it performed better than expected...it blocked all wind...and I never got cold...I all i wore underneith was an under armour base layer, a marmot base layer over that, and my marmot synthetic down puffy jacket w/ the arcteryx theta ar on top..it blocked all the elements

I have got an Arcteryx alpha SV that I no longer wear.  It's simply too stiff, but the protection that it offers is absolutely amazing.

 

I just picked up a Columbia Titanium Selkirk II Parka over the boxing day last year for $200 (regular $400).  It's pretty good given the cost.  It even comes with a 700 down sweater!! I simply couldn't resist the deal.  The jacket uses 3 layer construction like the arcteryx.  Of course, the stitching and seam tapings are clearly not as good.  As for waterproofness and breathability, the ratings are 20k/20k.  I think my arcteryx breathes a tad better.  I skiied in inclement weather conditions with the titanium jacket, -35 C windchill (up here in Canada) and I was toasty with it's down sweater and a TNF khumbu fleece underneath.  Like the alpha sv, I felt like I was in a spacesuit.

 

Given the cost, I must say that the titanium jacket offers superb value.  It will never come close to the arcteryx in terms of durability / abrasion resistance.  However, I have to say it's much more comfortable to wear than the amoured arcteryx.  In fact, I only wear the arcteryx for climbing now.  The titanium jacket just doesn't feel as robust for that, but I wear it all day long for my backcountry and resort skiing.  Before you go out and grab a Columbia jacket though, bewary that only a handful of their jackets have taped seams.  And don't expect arcteryx/goretex pro quality, but for what you pay, that are very decent.

there is no such thing as a breathable waterproof garment. take your pick: get wet from the inside or from the outside.