Is Gore-Tex Still King?

Proposition: WL Gore & Associates, Inc. remains the king of waterproof/breathable, despite the fact that Gore-Tex's patent is expired.

The world of waterproof/breathable textiles is confusing and enormously complicated. A few years ago, there were many media reports on seemingly credible threats to Gore-Tex from ascendant competitors such as Toray's Entrant. Then there is BHA Technologies' eVent material. The thing is, many of these new materials seem either hard to find or just as pricey, if not more, than Gore-Tex. When all factors are weighed in, it seems to me, IMHO, that Gore-Tex XCR in particular is the most widely available, affordable, versatile and trustworthy w/b technology out there.

But that's me.

Let's debate this. I'd love to hear your thoughts, experience, feelings, etc. about the state of the waterproof/breathable world. What do you wear? Is Gore-Tex over-rated? Have you tried any of the cool new players? What about multi-season versaility? Let's debate, people!

PS: I did look hard for previous threads dealing with this subject, but I found none. Perhaps I missed them. Nonetheless, the w/b world changes quickly, and fresh debate seems warranted.

Look at the numbers. They're available if you look hard enough.

There are few membranes that can compete with Gore-Tex on breathability. Most of the generics (EMS System III, TNF Hy-Vent, AquaStop, etc) have breathabilities between 1/2 and 2/3 the breathability of standard Gore-Tex. Gore-Tex XCR has even better breathability.

I only know of one manufacturer that makes equally good membranes, and that's Toray. Toray makes a couple of Entrant fabrics that are as good as anything Gore puts out. They're hard to find though. Burton makes some of them.

Columbia's Omni-Tech Platinum also has very good numbers and I've had good experiences with it.

The short answer is that, yes, Gore-Tex is still worth the extra money in most cases, and it's hard to find membranes that are comparable.

The other short answer: Nothing beats Gore-Tex XCR. That's not to say that nothing matches it, but you'll be very hard pressed to come up with a garment from a major manufacturer that will match it. And none will better it.

GoreTex is still king, but....

I wore an ArcTeryx Gamma SV in an hour of wet snow, then an hour of pouring rain, while skiing the lifts two weekends ago. Stayed warmer and drier than in my goretex shell. The moisture just beaded up on it, instead of saturating the fibers of the shell.

Precip stopped, wind picked up. No problem.

I didn't want to believe it, but the softshell stuff seems to really work.

the_elven: your Gore-Tex needs a treatment of a DWR on the exterior. You can buy the stuff at any store in a spray-on can for less than $10. It's essentially Scotch Guard and it wears off over time and needs to be replaced.

Thanks, Jonny. I guess the thing that seems mystifying is why Gore-Tex remains the top dog. There are millions of websites boasting "alternatives just as good as Gore-Tex," but when it comes down to it, none of these seem to be dethroning the King. I keep hearing about Chinese "copies" of Gore-Tex, but who actually uses them? And Entant and eVent, well, I hear all the noise, but where's the product?

I, for one...

...think that there are equal, if not better, alternatives to Gore-Tex. For example, I'm a big fan of Marmot and really love their "MemBrain" laminate. I've found it to be just as good as Classic Gore-Tex in barrier protection as well as being more breathable. It's also about $10-$20 cheaper garmant for garmant in Marmot's line.

I'm also a big fan of Toray fabrics. It's very high-tech and very, very functional...I recall reading somewhere about them working on an Entrant version that actually adjusts its pore-size based on ambiant tempreature and the ammount of heat and moisture you're producing. It comes outta' Japan, so it's really expensive. I have a Spyder US Team Issue shell and a pair of stretchpants (I know, I know...but hey, they were for running gates!) that have Entrant and they're still in great shape.

But my all time fav is my original North Face Steep Tech Work Jacket, the original yellow/black model worn by Scott Schmidt. It has Burlington's Ultrex coating on the fabric. I've been through thrunderstorms with this thing on...never got wet, never had a problem staying dry. It's got more than 100 days on the mountian, and countless other days just wearing around town and it still wroks like a dream...and looks fresh to boot!

Arvin

Any store? *Essentially* Scotch Guard? What is it specifically?

Jonnythan, I've looked, but I can't find any website with the test numbers. Come on, Bears, help us out!

Outofbounds -- I'd like to look into MemBrain, but the other technologies you mention still seem too expensive or not very available (far as I know). I don't want to get into a if-it's-good-just-buy-it debate, because that's sort of beside the point. My proposition is that, when all the factors are weighed, Gore-Tex kicks everyone else's arse, and a lot this seems to be because of accessibility. You can have the most technologically amazing textile in the world, but if you can't find a jacket that fits in your size and try it on, it's kind of a tree-falls-in-the-forest problem. I've heard incredible things about eVent, for example. But where to find it? This is crucial with clothing because I want to try stuff on.

I love goretex. I've tried entrent (good, but...), hellytech (good, but...), Spyder's whatever the hell is it (not bad)...

Goretex is just the best there is, in a wet climate. I got a pair of XC style trousers from Aussie's One Planet years ago. And sat outside a slopeside pub...upon rising, I realised I had been sitting in a largish puddle for the better part of 45 minutes. Bone dry, nothing, nada. You just can't beat it. I get all my gloves from Ocean and Earth (an aussie surf brand) in goretex, and this season especially I've been observing all teh wet hands coming out in the locker room, except mine.
goretex is king.

Goretex is still the king but it is not perfect and still needs to be looked after to work properly. Even though the patent has expired it still takes some incredibly expensive and precise machinery to make it. Even though it may be off patent and can be made by anyone, if Gore keep up the quality and keep innovating there is no reason they shouldn't keep their market share (think of YKK zipers).

A point to note about gloves is that there are very few that are seam sealed so they will never be as waterproof as a seam sealed jacket made with the same material. My goretex gloves also get clammy when the temperature rises.

One thing I want to make clear: My proposition is not the same as tacit admiration for Gore-Tex. Indeed, I wish it WASN'T king. I'm frankly surprised there have not been some more vigorous criticisms of Gore-Tex here or argument for something else, notwithstanding outofbounds' good post.

Burlington XALT aka North Face HydroSeal

I have a TNF jacket with HydroSeal (NOT HyVent) and it's pretty much the same as my similar TNF jacket with standard GoreTex. However, if you want to get "tech", here's a nice chart with all of the fabrics overlayed.

http://swoosh.lo-res.org/misc/breathability.pdf

--
Tom

Nice charts. Event definitely kicks butt. Schoeller "Dryskin" seems pretty fine (but waterproof?), too, as does Entrant. MemBrain, which is so available in the States, is definitely close to standard Gore-Tex, I see, just as outofbounds says.

Overall, I'm starting to get more sold on Entrant's GII XP material. It's not as unavailable as I first thought. I noticed quite a few Spyder jackets on sale at this moment, and it clearly beats Gore-Tex XCR in terms of numbers. Any draw backs???????

If you have to stay dry to save your life....Gore Tex XCR is the best.

Maybe someone will come up with a better, cheaper alternative but not yet.

Some of the other laminates and coatings are good but either not as breathable nor as durable as Gore Tex. However, even GT needs proper cleaning and treatment to prevent the pores from clogging and wetout.

For a PNW day, I will chose GT XCR any day.

But just playing devil's advocate here, did you look at the charts? Entrant clearly blows Gore-Tex XCR away. I don't know about the durability issue, nor anything about Entrant maintenance, but I guess I wonder if some of us -- me included -- are somewhat dogmatic about going for Gore-Tex without seriously looking at its competitors? Again, just devil's advocate.

Any store that sells Gore-Tex, yes. DWR stands for Durable Water Repellant. It's just a coating on the exterior of the fabric that makes the water bead up and roll off. If the nylon "wets out" the fabric is no longer breathable so this coating is obviously relatively important. It's not the waterproof layer, but it is water resistant.

There's Revivex, TX Direct by Nikwax, etc. I'm sure 3M makes one too. It's very similar to Scotch Guard in function. Scotch Guard might work, but I'm not sure if that's safe for Gore-Tex.

Columbia puts the numbers right on their jackets. The expensive ones with Omni-Tech Platinum will have breathability numbers as high as 20,000 (grams of water vapor per square meter per day), which is pretty much the same as Gore-Tex.

I know Burton sells jackets with advertised Toray membranes but I don't know any others off hand.

I don't know about BHA EVENT, but Schoeller Dryskin is not even remotely close to waterproof. It's a "water resistant" soft shell. They advertise it as the "original" soft shell.

I'm a little surprised at how much better Toray's Entrant GII XT did than Gore-Tex XCR. GII and XT are actually two different fabrics, with XT being the superior one with a published breathability of 10,000. Great link.

I've never actually seen a garment with Entrant GII or XT. I've seen Entrant DT, which should be on part with original Gore-Tex.

I wouldn't mind seeing more Toray fabrics, but they seem only a little less expensive than Gore-Tex and obviously don't have the name people look for. I'd pay just as much for an Entrant XT shell as I would for a Gore-Tex XCR one, though.

There are other laminates and coatings that are waterproof. Some durable and some not so durable. It is the combination of being waterproof, breathable, and durable that make GT so good. XCR is a more breathable version. Now that the patent has expired we will probably see more GT clone laminates (already have) that will bring down the cost. The other benefit of a GT garment is that GT Co. had to approve the design, materials, and construction of the garment in order to put the GT label on it. A reputable outdoor clothing company would make a good garment but a cheap, copycat one might make one with the fabric but with poor design and no seam seals, etc.

I have a light weight rain coat for warm weather hiking that works fine but is not as breathable as my GT gear...but it is lighter which is what I wanted.

As for care, any breathable fabric needs to be washed properly and treated with DWR as someone pointed out earlier to maintain breathability.

Interesting ... I've heard bad things about Gore-Tex in warm weather. That it mildews and the mildew completely ruins it ... So Gore-Tex is non-summer material, realistically?

Gore-Tex is just a membrane. It can be attached to any number of fabrics.

If you get the thing soaking wet and shove it in your trunk for a week in the summer, yeah, it will get nasty, like any other jacket.

You have to realize Gore makes Gore-Tex fabrics which manufacturers turn into clothing or what have you. The base fabric, to which the Gore-Tex is laminated, makes the largest physical difference between various jackets.

For very light weight jackets, Gore-Tex makes a 2 or 2.5 layer fabric they call Gore-Tex Paclite. They simply laminate Gore-Tex to a very lightweight but relatively strong ripstop nylon. Manufactuers such as EMS make jackets out of them, most of the time with no lining whatsoever. The grey on the inside of these jackets is the actual Gore-Tex membrane.

The nastiness and mildewiness is not specific to Gore-Tex.

Gore-Tex generally sucks in warm weather because the "driving" force is low. The driving force is a combination of the difference between the internal and external temperature and internal and external humidity. The driving force is highest when it's warm and moist inside the jacket and cold and dry outside the jacket. It's lowest when it's warm and wet both places. Therefore, sweat escapes very slowly, if at all, in the summer. This is universal as well.

Again, GORE-TEX IS NOT A MATERIAL! IT IS A SUPER THIN MEMBRANE that is ATTACHED to a material.

Best all-round jacket i've ever owned is my Arc'Teryx Alpha Comp - much more breathable than any other jacked i've used (HyVent, Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex XCR, Triplepoint Ceramic, etc..), as waterproof as I've needed so far skiing and really well made/designed. Well reccommended!

you need to keep in mind that any softshell ought to more breathable then any hardshell (by def. with a membrane; gor-tex, omni-tech, hyvent etc. ) This is why there are few softshells with pit zips and the like. (although chest pockets on an arcteryx gamma mx etc, vent a crazy amount.)

If you want something to be water proof, then you make a membrane that is solid... e.g. rubber. If you want it breathable then you add pores that allow water vapor out. a DWR finish causes water to bead on the surface, making the molecules too big to fit through the "pores" in the fabric....
Softshells and hardshells both use this. The laminate in hardshell has smaller pores which keeps them waterproof but doesn't vent as much. softshells, which do not have a laminate and have larger spaces woven into the fabric vent great, but are suspect in moist environments. if and when the DWR coating wears off, its not the end of the world... but you probably won't praise w.l. gore or anyone else any longer. The above suggestions to re-new this DWR finish are good, manufactures specify which they prefer.

I have to stop myself from re-posting everything Johnnythan has said, but I would like to touch on PacLite. I have 2 "rain" coats... i.e. year 'round shells to stay dry in non-freezing conditions. the first is a Marmot Precip Jacket...great when i first got it, great for the price...but durability and performance were suspect after the first year... I could feel the coat sticking to my short sleeved arms not sure if the moisture was coming in or not getting out. I also have an Arc'teryx Sirrus Sl (which you can find relatively cheaply now) that is Gor-tex paclite. I stay 100% more comfortable in the more durable Paclite shell. I've never had a problem... but maybe my infatuation with Arc'teryx has me blind to their faults? yea right, they're perfect

IF its hot and you put on a coat...you're going to get hotter. Mildew strikes anything that is packed and left wet...especially tents and yes it will do a number to any fabric

For whoever was wanting to try out some eVent jackets, Helly Hansen has introduced them this year to their line. I'm going to get one in the coming months with a good pro deal, it'll probably be too late to help you though. If you can find a place that carries HH though, give them a try.

The New King: Soft-Shells

Gore-Tex may be less of an issue today; not because of competing hard-shell fabrics (there's many), but because today's soft-shell designs are more functional.

If you need real waterproofing, Gore-Tex and hard-shells are still king. But, how often do you ski in pouring rain? If you do, your mother needs to speak with you.

For most people, water resistant is enough, and soft shells offer this with MUCH more breathability, more comfort and better thermal control (less overheating and freezing). They stretch, move with you and aren't stiff.

I own two expensive Marmot Gore-Tex XCR shells. However, since buying a new Marmot soft-shell, I rarely use them. Once you've skied with a good soft-shell, even the best hard-shells feel like cardboard.

Interesting. I'd like to hear what Jonnythan thinks about this. Questions: which Marmot softshell are you using? what about wind resistance and warmth? As an east coast skier, tomorrow I'm probably going to skiing in 5-10F weather. That's not unusual. I want a TECHNOLOGY (see Jon, I'm not saying material!!) that will keep me warm and be breathable. You're definitely right IMO about the whole waterproofing issue. One thing I can say about soft shells -- I haven't seen them that much about New England, at least not in the dead of winter.

See, so, so many, many issues. This is why a good discussion of Gore-Tex is valuable here, or at least for me.

Excellent discussion of softshell vs. Goretex on snowheads: http://snowheads.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2688&postdays=0&postorder=asc&star t=0

Speaking of softshells, here's a jacket by Mammut at Sierra Trading Post that is unbelievably low-priced. But would this "work" in Vermont? I really doubt it, though I'm not exactly sure why. I hope Jonnythan will jump back in and explain. Not that it's made with the famous Schoeller "Dryskin" technology. It' supposed to be reasonably water-resistant too.

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/xq/...qx/product.htm

Well, here's what I think.

Be careful with soft shells. The ones that are the most water resistant are most often quite a bit less breathable than Gore-Tex XCR. I don't know of a single soft shell that's more breathable than Gore-Tex XCR and is waterproof enough to resist typical spring conditions. Their main advantage is the softness and stretchiness of the fabric. I no longer have access to the info, but IIRC the Marmot Sharp Point and their other high end soft shells didn't have a lot in the way of breathability, and they limit your layering options.

That being said, I love soft shells and I love my Schoeller WB-400 fabric EMS Apollo jacket. Super comfy, perfect by itself as a fall or spring jacket, or for ice climbing since I can wear it under a belay jacket.

Schoeller Dryskin is thin, lightweight, and slightly water resistant. That is to say, if you run to your car in the rain the water will more or less stay off you. Lean against a wet lightpole for a few minutes and water will start to seep in. It's also not windproof, which is obviously a detriment. Dryskin excells at very aerobic activities in moderate weather (ie, running when it's 30 degrees out and might snow lightly).

There are some really great soft shells with Gore Windstopper branded fabric, and Toray makes a very cool 100% waterproof stretch soft shell fabric called Dermizax that is very unique.

In any case, soft shells are worst when you think they would be best. They seem like the perfect thing for spring skiing... toss on your long underwear top and your soft shell. The problem is that if you get any significant exposure to water, you will get soaked inside and out, and since most soft shells have a thin fleece laminated to the inside, it will get very soggy and stay that way.

IMO a lightweight, breathable hard shell is still the most versatile piece of gear you can own, though a soft shell is a great *addition* to the wardrobe. A soft shell doesn't really give you anything a hard shell doesn't in typical skiing conditions. Of course, everything depends on the particular shell.. but like I said, I have yet to see a soft shell that is better for skiing than a night lightweight Gore-Tex XCR shell.

In my opinion of course

Anyone have any luck figuring out which Columbia garments use Omni-Tech Platinum? Their website is almost as bad as Obermeyers!

Columbia's web site is worse than worthless.

It's made even more so by the fact that they create jackets specifically for certain retailers like Dick's. Seems like your only shot is to go to a store and take a look. The hang tags on the zipper pulls tell you what the fabric is, how breathable it is, and how waterproof it is.

For a laugh, go look at their soft shells. On the inside of the jacket they have panels explaining all the cool technology, as well as gives their numbers. Most of their softshells have less than 1/2 the breathability of their standard Omni-Tech hard shells.