Old Binding Info

I have some old bindings on my antiques:
Tyrolia 490 (metal)
Marker twincam 4
Solomon 202s and 647s

Shops won't service them, but they are still in perfect working order, honest.

I would like to find some on-line schematics, so I don't have to figure out which screws to turn which way every time I need to adjust something, like when I bought new boots last year to replace the ones that were two sizes too small.

Can you point me in the right direction?
Thx.

Go to a shop with a technician more than 40 years old. Give him a case of beer. Ask.

I know of no such info online, and I just googled it quickly.

Bindings are lot cheaper than Surgery.

I would be afraid to use the 202's or 647's. The 202's had no elasticity or upward comensation in the toe peices, the 647s were know to blow springs and heel cups due to poor plastic.

The Markers are dated and the Tyrolias were all recalled.

You are playing russian roullet with your bindings. Just buy new bindings or go to a ski swap and buy some "current" bindings that are still attached to some straight skis for $20.00. There is a good reason these bindings are no longer indemnified...its because they are not safe.

There is nothing wrong with the metal Tyrolia 490s; it's the Delrin plastic ones that were recalled.

"There's nothing wrong with the metal Tyrolia 490's".

Well..actually not true.Sorry..no offense.. but I gotta go with what others have said so far.
I know a lot about old bindings.For ALMOST ALL skiers,techs, and shops..there is A LOT! wrong with them.VERY.. MOST IMPORTANTLLY!! is that they are old..AND the knowledge,expertise to PROPERLY maintain them,set them up is going fast.For this reason ALONE is enough..OR should be that..they ARE NOT! used OR serviced by the VAST majority(almost all) of skiers or shops..HENCE the indemnity of certain bindings.WHO? wants to USE..let alone ski in a SAFETY device(binding)..that there is LITTLE service information..OR the personnel with the tools,knowledge or expertise to deal with..PLUS the industry as a whole has LOST confidence in.

This being said there are EXTREMELY rare cases where..you are right..that "there is nothing wrong with the metal Tyrolia 490's".OBVIOUSLLY they were good..in their day.BUT! what about today?..PERSONALLY!..I HATE! with a passion to see people getting into trouble..HURT.. because of a VERY easily corrected situation..just that your reply seemed a little defensive.IF these were NEW! OR METICULOUSLLY maintained by an expert..OR recentlly tested by such..THEN this would be an entirely different story.

I trust ski bindings with my life.Not long ago someone contacted me looking for a pair of these..Tyrolia 490 RD's(14 din).They wanted NEW! ones..OR VERY close to it..for a pair of their old classic skis..I come across stuff occassionally OR go look for it.I found 4 pair to "work with".Take a close look at the rear track..it is somewhat raised off the ski surface..the bottom of the track on the screw hole mounts is chamferred DOWNWARD..LOL..and they mount with a flat head screw.A little math here tells us that there is a HUGE potential for these screws to be overtorqued..AND the tracks bent.Take several pairs of these off skis and tell me what shape the tops of the skis are in.Tell me if the tracks are still straight.This particular raised track idea..especially the front adjustment(length)little gear and track is a MAGNET for crud.SO are the tracks where the actual binding housing rides.Were there worse bindings for this?Me thinks not.What happens(d) with these was that IF they got the salt treatment..OR crud in there..and/or the track wore then MORE crap got in there.Pitted is bad.The heels got sloppy..but WORSE! Ever tried to get one of these sloppy diagonal things back on..in deep snow?On the steep?.These had pre-release issues as they aged..BECAUSE the actual heelpiece was jammed in it's track..OR could barely move back and forth.NOTORIOUS for seized/no or little forward pressure control/movement.Sometimes the crud built up so bad underneath the housing that the actual spring was almost full.
Out of 8 heelpieces..including the tracks..4 were serviceable..4 were junk..I rebuilt 1 set..tested them.And sent them out both SAYING and KNOWING that I'ld trust them with my life.In their day..others did too.Would I ski in or reccommend that ANYONE else ski in a set..that wasn't rebuilt?..or rebuild a set themselves..Of COURSE NOT!..
The other set I put on Ebay .."As Is"..I also offerred to adjust,test them for additional $..these too went out almost the same as the first pair.

On these particular bindings..they obviouslly have toe and heel height adjustment ..release adjustments are simple.If the rear units are sloppy.Toss them.Don't think that if they are sloppy that cleaning,greasing will help..it'll help ya alright..TOSS YA "diagonally" lol..If they are ok..take them off..turn them over..clean them up..and the tracks..grease them with plumbers grease.The forward pressure adjustment is controlled by the boot position for the sole length.It is impossible for me here to describe it.There are no specs for it.If one is/feels different..toss them.NEVER! try and compensate by moving the heel further forward.It is next to impossible to see(the forward pressure adjustment) without the boot in the ski..alone.Self release test them with your boots on.There are obviouslly other "feel", smoothness issues that I can't convey here either.

Newer bindings are safer..(design and otherwise)SOME! old(er) metal ones expertlly maintained are safe..FOR CASUAL USE!..the odd reasonablly hard "blast"..just how safe is ANY old binding when the din is cranked right up and they're run hard by a 200lb athlete? .NOT! for repeated use..and certainlly not for repeated hard use. just who?? you can get/TRUST to service old bindings should be a MAJOR! consideration..Indemnified bindings sell for about $20 used on Ebay.

Arnold

Thanks for the post---you show some real passion about old bindings. I think my wife had some of those old Tyrolias in pink plastic.

What do you think of the old yellow and black ESS VAR 614?
I've got some and can't decide if it is time to retire them. The heels match the Atomic 614 bindings in many ways but the toe doesn't seem to have as much elasticity. They fit right in the Atomic plates so they have some value.

The only non-indemnified binding I would concider using would be the first Salomon 727's. They are basicly the same in technology as the newest Salomons, except for the downward compensation. The First year bindings were metal housings (like the Equipes) but were not "DIN", the pressure was 1-4. If I NEEDED bindings and found a NIB set, I would get them torqued and use them. With that said, I would sooner get some used 797's at a ski swap.

Ghost, I can help.
There are three, or four screws in the toe piece and four in the rear. If you lay the ski on its base on your workbench, and look down on the binding, you should see these screws - the screw heads should be vertical, facing you.
Turn each of these screws fully anti-clockwise.
Now, to confirm you have carried out the right procedure, lift the toe binding up. Repeat this process with the heel binding.
The final part of the process is to phone the Smithsonian, and offer them the bindings...




S

Could anyone tell me where the forward pressure setting is on these bindings.

A number of years ago I had a Goodwill as a client. Management knew I skied and asked me to come up with a procedure for the handicapped workers to sort ski's into junk and sell-able units. They had barrels of second hand skis, most with bindings, most VERY old, but not antique.

At the time, I finally settled on having the workers discard all ski/bindings that did not have a DIN window. That narrowed the stack tremendously.

Next I had them discard all with any kind of safety STRAP.

That effectively left DIN bindings with brakes as the only ski/bindings that would make it to the store floor.

Sliders toe piece would not have made the cut!

Thanks for the replies and the concern, especially to Arnold who took a lot of time.:

Don't worry about the 202s. They are still on a pair of skis I bought about 30 years ago. They are short stiff fiberglass skates pretending to be Dynastar skis. If I ever use them again it will be on a lark, and I will accept the consequences of my actions. I really doubt I'll waste my valuable skiing time on them; they are more of a curio.

As for the Tyrolias, they are even older than you think; they predate Delrin, but I've had them since new and keep them clean. They only see snow, and the snow is wiped off them before it can melt; they travel INSIDE my car. Maybe it's a good thing not to have a manual; I get to take them apart and see that all the parts are still doing what they're supposed to do, and force the bindings through their release movements, but YOU'RE RIGHT. The diagonal simi-upward release at the tow is probabably not as good as the release mechanisms available today. I'm not a professional ski binding technician, but I understand the physics of the bindings. It's been many a year since I cranked them up. The days when an undesired binding release was a greater concern than a binding non-release are long gone for me. I don't do crazy speeds any more; I have a family to think about. Come to think of it, I don't think I had the old super g's out last winter; there were too many demos to try and not enough ski days . The previous winters saw me getting involved with the bindings as my old no-longer-worn racing boots were much smaller than the comfy boots I was renting, and as you know the bindings must be adjusted correctly to the sole length - too short and there is too much pressure adding friction to the release. It is a tricky thing. I did test the release with my feet in the boots.

The Marker twin cam and the 647 I haven't really looked at yet. I just got them at a church sale attached to some old slalom skis (Fischer Vacuum RC4s, and Blizzard Secura Compact : ). I'm taking these to a shop to be tuned before I decide what to do with them (maybe donate them to the next church yardsale .

Thanks again.

FWIW the 490s are of the same vintage as Delrin (iirc 87-89ish) but were the top end binding and made of metal(yay, remember when bindings were made of metal) when you spent less money you got the 480/470/380/370/280/270 and the delrin toe and heel lugs which would degrade after exposure to UV rays(sunlight) as a side note almost all the binding companies had an issue with this problem(especially white delrin for whatever reason)

Ghost if you are in need of some older bindings to add to your collection I do have a few pair of Look-Nevada turntables (N-17, N-57, N-77). Of all the older bindings there were my first choice.

LOL.. and I think I have a pair of BURT II's around also.

Weren't those the new and improved retractable bindings? : Skied them "once" it was scary. My personal fav was the Spademen.

The year after I bought mine, you could only get tyrolias with delrin, even the 490s as i descovered when I bought my wife a pair of skis. I have a sore back from patting myself on my smart purchase. Looks like getting a durable binding might not have been so smart, but then again I'm still here.

Hi..Newf..I really don't know much about those/old Atomic/Ess/Var..I've tested them..they seemed ok..didn't have a bad history..there are some Atomic guys out here.In the summer..someone got in touch with me looking for some..I did come across a few pair..they felt crappy..gritty in their release?I didn't pursue them..I am in NO way passing judgement on ALL of them..I really don't know what's involved..or how much of them can be exposed/taken apart to refurbish/lube them..interestinglly enough this guy found 2 more pair on Ebay..they turned out to be nfg too..??
"Non-indemnified that I'ld use"..regularlly?..none.REALLY hard.. or in..what could become dangerous situations?..none.
The odd hard blast..few runs..I have some pretty much perfect.well maintained S 555's(circa about 75..on some ancient Atomic ARC's (Biometric/elastic tail)and on some Dynamic VR27's.(I did last seasona and may this year too)A few pairs of plastic 5,6,747..on various skis..(ditto above)I have found that THOSE particular plastic bindings when NOT used OR tested above about an 8..AND when used every now and then..still work ok..WILL show the tell tale signs when and where they will fail.The bottom of the heel lugs will start to show cracks..then one day when you step in..OR if they are full of hard snow..and can't move far enough back against the spring..they will fracture at the rivets.I have several pair that I trust.INTERSTINGLLY enough!..when they are left laying around for years..EVEN new! they are COMPLETELY untrustworthy..and WILL fail with NO warning.IF I know the history of them..and have been used..looked after..then I feel they are ok for moderate use..the odd hard blast..UP to a release of about 8.Almost all of them WILL break during testing above this.I still have a few pair kicking around..I give away/to replace..remount the odd pair for people..If they are not used much..or new..I DON'T even give them away..I just throw them out.Ditto for hard or heavy skiers..I won't even give them to them.Last winter someone wanted me to mount some up for them..he bought a lot of 4 new pair of 647's.BRAND NEW..in the box..c'mon..these things have been sitting around for 15 years..anyway.They should have a "best before" label on them..hey Waxman..it ain't just the sunlight that does in the white delrin..HAHA..He couldn't find a shop to touch them..no kidding..I offered to help him out..and WARNED him..roughly set at a 7 din..length CORRECTLLY set..4 pairs..that's 8 heels..2 of the plastic lugs on the heels broke off AS the boot went in!1 of the rear heelpieces housings broke at the rivet.1 broke when testing.2 of the front housings cracked during testings..lol..the springs exiting lol.I gave him some used ones..he was ok then.
A few pair of 747 "E"'s(metal) on a few pair of skis.This is REALLY what to do with old classic skis..and plastic Sallies..take off the plastic crap..screw on the "E"' same holes..(the E actually uses an additonal screw in the heel..you can do without that one)The "E"'s are pretty much indestructible..I HATE the way they feel...AND release..but they don't come off..and they do let you out when you need it..the "E"'s are still available..Ebay,swaps,junk stores,garage sales..

I gotta go with "Bear traps"...actually no..NO WAY! I had a set of skis as a kid that I wore plain rubber boots with..they had a mortised square slot about 1" wide and 1/4" high right under the foot area..through the ski..and a LONG leather strap.I don't think ths was the actual "long thong" set up.Ya wanna talk about deadly accurate edge control..pressurizing the skis..now THAT was the hot set up..

NO! this was..I saw on tv where someplace near India?..they did not use bindings..OR straps..HMMmm..give up?...That's right..they NAILED..yes nailed.. rubber boots(laces?? are you kidding!..)..yes..from the inside..through the sole..into the ski.Then very simply just put on..errr..boot and ski together..WHAT! a concept!..that's the end of that pesky pre-release problem.We don't need no stinkin' powder leashes.

Hello -- I was searching for information on the old turntable-type Look bindings when I found this four year-old thread.

I'm mainly writing because I'm in the same boat you were in. I collect and use late-1950s through 1960s ski gear. At the moment I have a pair of Toni Sailers, Hart Professionals, Kneissl White Stars, Head Standards and a few others -- all outfitted with Look Nevada IIs. The only post-1970 skis I have are some solid wood (with P-Tex base) Lacroix prototypes from 2002, which I want to mount some Look 77s on.

I've tried taking this gear to ski shops with the hopes that they would be willing to tune the skis and test/adjust the bindings, but no one will touch them. I realize that there are liability issues, but I find the situation absurd. I mean, cars from the 1960s are huge fun to drive, and most guys -- even these who say that skiing on 1960s ski gear is tantamount to "Russian Roulette" -- would gladly take the opportunity to own a 1960s Jaguar or Ferrari, and drive them at speed, despite the lack of shoulder belt, airbags OR ABS. There's no shortage of garages that will gladly work on those cars too. So what is the story with skis?!

I have yet to hear anyone explain why they think that vintage cars and motorcycles should be allowed on the road, where speeds of 70mph on hard tarmac is the norm, and that a crash at freeway speeds is likely to result in death not only for driver, but passenger(s) and even others on the road, but that a person is "playing Russian Roulette" simply by using good quality 40 year-old ski gear! I'd certainly rather take a tumble on snow than come off of one of my 1960s motorcycles at 60mph onto the asphalt. However, that doesn't discourage me from riding them thusly, and no, I haven't ever come off at speed. Can anyone explain this apparent dichotomy?

Anyway, I too am looking for information out there on release loads for testing bindings. I have a basic Lippe testing unit, but without the proper information about pounds of release pressure, it's difficult to know how to test. Have you been able to find anything for your own gear? Also, do you know of any fora where actually using vintage gear is discussed?

Feel free to contact me via e-mail

Regards --

Robert

I still ski n17's, n57's and my personal favorite n77's

Great bindings that were way ahead of their time and (for me) still very useable if in good shape and 'tested'. Feel free to disuss USING vintage gear here and remember that in the end you must assess for yourself and do what you are comfortable with.

Damn I must be one reckless guy...I still ride motorcycles from the early 70's and BRITSH cars from the 60's. I even dare to use woodworking tools from the 1800's . Newer is different sometimes an improvement, sometimes not so much. Use what you like is my moto.

I have some release torques somewhere if I can find them.

Rossi Smash, its amazing you're still alive!

Since we're digging up old threads..... not in this country

Robert,

There are shops that will do a "safety check" on a binding knowing all well they will "fail" the visual inspection.

I myself have been collection some Look bindings, but not as vast or old as RossiSmash's collection.

I had Look P-15 turntables mounted on wood skis and skied them last week. It was fun.

You asked what's different between a car inspection/ service and a binding function test.

A lawyer who tries to sue a mechanic over a car accident will lose so he won't even file a lawsuit, people understand driving cars, a jury will make the 'right' decission, so no lawsuit.

A lawyer will WIN a lawsuit against a shop at least 50% of the time. The general public does not understand skiing, they assume it's like going to an amusement park. If you get hurt then someone, somewhere is at fault. This means lawyers will pursue a claim and even if the shop 'wins' it still loses.

You are asking why shops won't test old bindings, they are signing a legal form saying 'these work, you'll be safe' when they know that that is NOT true. The binding may 'pass' today and fail horribly tomorrow... hello litigation!

I say go ahead and ski the older gear, just don't involve some innocent shop owner/ employee.

A few of the older models to compliment Phil's newer stash....

Wow, this is one strong reason why we are where we are today.  Everyone is litigation happy and in CYA mode.  You can't use those there're old and dangerous.  My God I should just junk my old McIntosh receiver now because it might start a fire.

Most of the old gear is just fine if, like everything else, it was properly maintained.  I still have my Hexcel Motivators and Tyrolia 350R bindings.  Anyone going to tell me they are unsafe?  Geez, I guess because I started skiing when everyone used straps and changed to brakes (on this setup no less) I should just toss the old stuff and buy new.

This is like overhearing parents who say my child can't drive and old car without 12 airbags because they are not safe.  Not safe?  Common sense please.

Why we are the way we are today? Didn't Shakespeare say "Kill all the lawyers"? This is nothing new. Sure your Macintosh tube amp might be fine and unless they were prone to starting fires, you probably have nothing to worry about other than your melodramatics. 

As far as your Tyrolia 350R's, I have them too (and 350D's) and yes I will still ski them. I will take them out for my yearly retro days after I torque them to make sure the 1-3 non DIN windows are set to an acceptable range. I did two years ago on my 350D's and they still came off when they shouldn't have in a place that was dangerous. Pics are somewhere. So yeah, i will be one of the first to tell you that they are not safe. 


I just went through some "talks" with Salomon because they pulled bindings off of their indemnification list which WERE still viable bindings, they were reinstated. So I am as much if a binding advocate as anyone and stand behind older bindings. Are metal housed bindings better? Yeah, and they cost more. Will plastic and composites last as long? No, I doubt it too. But I would feel much safe on a new plastic Tyrolia RF10 vs. my 30 year old metal 350R's. 

If you think things haven't change watch this video....
Technology has gotten better and assuming you are still driving that 82 Jetta (I had an 83, 84 GTI)  but you might be the safest driver out there but with everyone else doing everything but what they should be do, which is driving, they are eating, drinking, texting, talking, yelling at the kids in the back. At 80MPH on the highway, give me something newer. 

Hey Phil, how narrow a Nm range can you get those things to release in? 

There is no "safe" or "unsafe", only degree of risk.  Old binding may be worn out or have plastic parts weakened from UV exposure or have other problems which increase their degree of risk.  If you never fall your bindings won't matter.  The best bindings, properly mounted, installed and maintained will decrease you risk if you fall.