The best ski/snowboard tuning in the nation

I wanted to take this opportunity to thank all of my supporters on epicski for all of your positive feedback. I also want to introduce myself to those of you who do not know me. My name is Mike de Santis and I own Precision Tuning Center. I'm located at Summit Ski and Snowboard in Framingham, MA. 508 875 6905. I also have another outlet for my service at our other store in Danvers, MA. 978 777 5587.
After 11 years with Volkl Skis, serving as World Cup Tech, World Cup Race Director, and Product Development Manager, has provided me with valuable insight on the widely interpreted field of ski preparation.
All of my work is money-back guaranteed, and is designed to bring out the maximum game improvement potential of your shaped ski invesrment. If you are reading this and do not live in Massachussetts, I have a large Fed-X customer base of people who ship me their skis from all over the country in order to have their skis refinished to a level that exceeds factory specs.
I have invented a specific process using Wintersteiger stone grinders and ceramic disc grinding, to restore skis to a level of tolerance that you cannot find on brand new skis.
My business is based on reality, not perception. There is no substitute for knowing the formula's that dictate edge angle measurement. My machines are checked for calibration daily, and all skis and boards come back to you with a tolerance from tip to tail between 90-100%.
Most brand new skis are consistently inconsistent due to mass production. However, I predict most if not all factories in the next 2-3 years will be producing skis with edges that actually are between .5 - 1.0 degrees base bevel and 2-3 degrees of side edge angle. When this occurs, there will be no place for poor ski service to hide. It is these tolerances applied with a high level of consistency that will ensure that your shaped skis ellicit all of their intended performance. Do not be fooled by anyone that tells you there are different edge angles for varying abilities. A novice skier deserves to hold the ice as well and easily as an expert. No one should have to work hard to get this from their skis. Chances are if you have trouble, there's actually nothing wrong with your skis, it's just the preparation.
At Precision Tuning Center we sell more than just the best preparations out there, we sell better skiing. We provide a critical link to the ski industry with preparations that make people happy with their ski purchase (brand). We allow them to have a great resort experience with skis that do what they are intended to do. Most importantly, our preparations instill better skiing and confidence out there on the slopes, allowing the skier to want to keep going back out there for more.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. If you would like more information, or have any questions regarding preparation, please do not hesitate to contact me by phone, this column, or e-mail.
Once again, thanks to all of my believers out there. As you all know, actions speak louder than words, and I always welcome the opportunity to put my money where my mouth is.
Mike

I have to vote my support for Mike deSantis. Having had him tune my skis many times over the past years, (and previously having had my skis tuned by a US Ski Team technician)... I can honestly say that not only has Mike done a fabulous job on my skis every time, I have developed a better feel for a tune. Mike, you've made me a tune snob!

I agree that Mike knows his stuff and my wife will not allow me to take her skis anywhere else.

Speaking of which, when are you going to start doing grinds this coming season?

I need the Atomics touched up.

First post....

I will also say that Mike does great work. I've been buying my equipment from Summit since it was called The Ski Shop and was in the basement of a building up the street from where it is now (19-20 years).

I'll be bringing in my Screams in the next few weeks.

If anyone wants to know (john), I start grinding skis tomorrow for a whole bunch of people going to Portillo, Chile. This is a great time for anybody who knows how busy I get during the season, to bring me your sticks. It will be one less thing to worry about when the snow flies.

Hey Mike -- glad to see you've found EpicSki. I saw your title of "best ski and snowboard tuning in the nation" and I was going to have to take up issue with that because I know this great guy named "Mike DeSantis" in Framingham...

I'll try to take better care of my Volkl's this year! : Hopefully we'll get real snow for a change!

Yea.. this is a little spamy... but, i agree, Mike is the best in NE, he knows his stuff. His work is well worth the trip.

Welcome to the forum Mike. When I read this title"best ski and snowboard tuning in the nation" my was though was me. But now that I've read your post, I'll conseed my self proclaimed title.

I'm sure your be another valuable member here on Epic. Thanks in advanced for all your going to do for us.

Take care of John, He's a on-line buddy, even though he blew me off one time at Okemo. Seems his wife wanted to ski somewhere else.

Hey guys,
I apologize for any spamminess. The reason I come out of the blocks the way I do is because that's just the way I am. When I know something and I can actually back it up with fact, well......I just come out and say it. Perhaps at the risk of putting some people off, but oh well. I left Volkl because after giving clinics to various retailers across the country, I was absolutely shocked and horrified at the plethora of misinformation out there. Not to mention the vast majority of ski service going on is actually more of a disservice to the skiing public. Shaped skis need a very high level of attention to edge and base surface tolerances, otherwise they WILL NOT deliver the goods to the driver, FACT. Poorly serviced shaped skis are a HAZARD, FACT.
I see skis everyday with base edge bevels upwards of 10 degrees. One ice patch next to the woods and I hope that guy is at least wearing a helmet. Servicing peoples shaped ski investment is a big responsibility, and someone has to get out there and let people know it! Doing it right takes dexterity , experience, and knowledge, which the average high school kid or ski bum does not necessarily have. The reality is most skiers are getting ripped off when they get their skis tuned, and I am sick and tired of it! Sorry if this all sounds a bit preachy, but the truth is sometimes hard to hear. I only want to help people love our sport, or become reinvigorated by it with all this new technology that is now available. Many skiers need to start realizing that "the tune sucks, it's not you" as opposed to "you suck it's not the tune."
Ciao, skidoc

Don't worry we will definately hook up this year for some bumps at Okemo. That weekend was raining so we didn't make it up.

Mike is cocky but he backs it up.

He is a great guy and loves talking and teaching about tunes and ski technology.

I learned alot by spending an afternoon at his shop and I maintain my skis exactly like he taught me.

He will be a great addition to the board especially when we start posting about tuning once the snow starts coming.

BTW, are we going to get a tuning only section of the forum like we talked about last year?

Hey Mikey,

Nice read dude you always say the right things. Listen, I've gone to all German cars now. So, that's a german wife, dog, cars, skis, bindings and JCS probably would be bummed if I went to another boot.

By the way Mike does know how to tune a ski.

I can send you some clients

as a long time instructor in New England I can send you some clients. But, as my high school latin teacher told me, I only need to remember three latin words... quid pro quo...

Bob

Skidoc,

I agree that there is a fair amount of sloppy ski tuning out there. For a long time I have avoided machine tuning because an inexperienced or careless operator can do damage in 30 seconds that may take hours to fix by hand. The last time I had a stone grind the bases came out concave ahead of the bindings and convex behind. Because I trusted the shop, I didn't bother to inspect them before skiing. Yikes! They were a real mystery to ski.

I met someone else who went to the same shop and complained to them that they made the bases concave. The tech told him that because of the limitations of the machine (a Wintersteiger) the bases were as flat as they could get them. The skis were nothing extreme, pretty average width and sidecut, so this seemed like BS to me.

This brings me to my question: what can the customer do to determine if a shop can be trusted to do a decent tuning job with flat bases and accurate bevels? Are there certain types of machines that should be avoided? Should edge bevels be done by hand, or by machine? How about those computer controlled machines that grind bases, set bevels, and wax all in one pass? Are there some basic questions the customer should ask before going ahead with the tune?

I'll be interested in your comments. Unfortunately we can't all go to your shop (well I suppose we could, but the shipping would get expensive).

Jim

Bob,
I always take care of those who take care of me. If it's for real, it's a two way street.
Mike

JimL,

I use a knife edge trubar to check skis. Mike and his associated have one onhand in the store to determine first how much the tune will cost. The more base damage or amount of overbeveling increases the tune cost. They also use the trubar to show you the results after a tune.

I know Mike uses separate machines for a grind and edging. I beleive he has a Wintersteiger stone grind machine and a ceramic edger which are both nice pieces of equipment. He also removes the bindings before a grind so you get a more accurate base level. I am not sure when or how much he does anything by hand but I know he has the tools for that also.

I think he has a small hot wax machine and/or does hand hot waxes depending on the type of tune tune.

I'm sure Mike can answer more accurately.

Mike who is going to Portillo?

Jim,

Scalce beat me to it.
A well calibrated, maintained, and cared for machine operated with knowledge, blows the doors off of the best hand tune. The exception being side edge filing to find hari-kari levels of sharpness, which is not necessary for about 10 out of 10 average to exceptional ability skiing enthusiasts.
Every ski from beginner to racer, every powder ski, and every snowboard should be tuned the same. Base edge bevel between .5-1.0 degrees, side edge angle between 2-3.0 degrees. These angles allow for the effortless automated response skis and snowboards are designed to deliver. It also keeps them extremely stable, and predictable in all conditions.
Concavity is perfectly normal and is generally found in the tip and tail areas. Every manufacturer has some, and there is not a perfectly finished ski produced to this day. All skis perform perfectly within acceptable tolerances. Base concavity, depending on its location is acceptable up to 2mm of depth due to snow surface compaction. A little extra pressure on the edges can be a lot of help when your carving that trench as well.
Convexity is unacceptable, particularly under the foot. However, up to .5mm is acceptable in the tips and tails with out detection due to snow surface compaction. A true bar is the only way to accurately read base and base edge bevel tolerances. Over a distance of 6mm starting where the bar contacts the base edge, then raising the bar to close the gap of light over the base edge, the other end of the bar has to be only 1mm off the base. This equates to 1 degree of base edge angle. .5mm equals .5 degree, 2mm equals 2 degrees, get the picture? This is the math that most shops don't do or understand how to identify a ski's present condition before it ever reaches the machine. This is the only way I operate, more labor equals more dollars. My specific process makes sure that all skis are finished with 0 degree of bevel so the disc edger can do its job.
Automated machines can do a fair job if the skis going into it don't exceed more that 2-2.5 degrees of base bevel. Otherwise the actual process of making it flat takes too long, as semi atuomated machines allow for quicker adjustment. Machines are only as smart as the person that runs them, whether automated or semi automated.
When working with your favorite shop, ask them to identify the present edge angles and conditon of your ski's. If they do not know how to use a true bar, Maybe you should keep looking around. Laser bevel meters, as well as magnetic one's are too sensitive to skis with thin edges , bases, or damaged edges to be considered accurate. You can only trust the eye combined with the math I explained above. After that Jim, there are far too many more parameters of machine operation and ski knowledge than I have time to explain here that will ultimately determine the outcome of your service.
Please don't hesitate to give me a call If you would like more info on how I can help you, because there's a lot more to this story. 508 875 6905. Please leave a message if I'm not there and I'll get back to you ASAP.
Mike

Mike,

Scalce mentioned that you remove the bindings before doing a grind. I expect that this makes it possible to have a much more accurate tune. From what I've seen, many, if not most, shops use a bridge which goes over the bindings so that they can feed the ski into the machine with the bindings in place. I think this has to result in inconsistent pressure on the ski and uneven speed going through the grinder resulting in a base that is not as flat as it should be.

Jim

Jim,

That's exactly right. I'm probably the only one in the country that does this. It provides the most consistent contact pressure over the top surface and lenght of the ski. It creates the best possible base edge surfaces for the ceramic disc edger. It's all about reducing variables when the goal is to achieve a tolerance in the 90th percentile from tip to tail on right and left base edges. It's the rarest of occasions a brand new ski comes with right and left base edges at the same bevels. Ski production tends to establish trends of inconsistencies depending on the status of the finish production. Many skis come with both right edges at a different bevel than the left one's. This generally will always make one turn feel better than the other. The pilot knows something is different, but never assumes that maybe it's the ski's. How can that be? There brand new right? Too bad, he's just plain out of luck until someday someone might actually look at his skis and tell him about this problem and the ways it can manifest itself in his skiing.
Most shops will never remove bindings, because there are those out there that think you can't take a binding off and put it back on w/out damaging the integrity of the holes. When I was a tech on the World Cup, moving bindings around was an everyday occurence. Hilary Lindh drives down a course at 70-80 mph with swiss cheese under her feet. I never lost a binding then and don't plan on it now. A drill with a clutch is your best friend. That,combined with a modicum of intelligence can do the job right. The only stripped out screws that we heli-coil are the skis that come from somewhere else. You would be amazed at what you see when you take everyone else's work apart.
It's been a pleasure,
Mike
ps A couple is taking there honeymoon in Portillo, and actually had read about Precision Tuning Center here on Epic Ski before I became a member. This finally inspired me to join. As well another loyal customer from our other store is going to check out the ways of the Condor.

Mike,

Tell me when you get around to my Atomics.

I knew something was fishy about the tails and Teddy thought they might be up to 5 degrees off in some spots.

Also my wife's R10s were off from the factory as well but not as bad.

I figured I would just wait until this year to get them tuned since I wasted so many tunes on the Volkls last year that went back to the factory for warranty.

Also the new Salomon's we purchased on Saturday looked good out of the wrapper but take a look at them if you get a chance.

Thanks

Mike,

I appreciated your call last week. I learned a few things just from our discussion. But, I have a question. It sounds as though you would recommend a tune, for any ski, right out of the plastic. Is that right, or would you suggest skiing them for a season before sending them to you?

Tom,
I always recommend to our customers to take the factory tune out for a spin, but I definitely would not waste a whole season on an incorrect tune. That would make for a whole season of creating bad habits in ones ski technique now wouldn't it? Anyway, this allows them to form a basis for comparison when I perform a refinish. That usually puts the nail in the coffin. But, if the ski has upwards of 3-4 degrees of base bevel (Salomons and K2's), I will tell them "if this ski does not meet your highest expectations, we can make it right for you." Most people think that a brand new 500-700.00 ski should be tuned perfectly out of the wrapper, so we still have to be a bit PC.
I'll make a tune snob out of you yet.
ps. I remember when skis were approaching the 700.00 mark and there was NO TUNE at all on the skis.

What kind of prices are we talking here, ballpark? Are Atomics an issue, or do you remove the plastic riser plates too to get the ski top as flat as possible?

Skidoc, I agree sometimes the factory tunes are incorrect. Hey nobody is perfect. But I have skied some Volkls that I was amazed at how good the factory tune was. When I got them back from there first time across the Winterstieger they were quite a bit different. I took them back to the shop and told them what I felt. They appoligized and promptly fixed them.
I have seen skis that come from the factory so messed up they were unskiable. It just comes down to knowing what a ski should feel like.

I have been to demo day's and found skis that had up to three different edge angles on them. I told the rep his skis feel like theres something wrong with them and he tried to tell me I was wrong, until I showed him the three different angles. Sometimes even the best can have an off day.

Hopefully you will be able to help a lot for our fellow epic members how to tell the difference.

Over the past few seasons and after my son finished with race team, I figured I had all the tools I might as well tune my own skis. My skis only go to the shop now when they need a stone grind.

The good thing about having Mike tune the skis is you are guaranteed that they have very accurate base and edge bevels. Some people cannot tell the difference but most serious skiers can.

This allows you to maintain a great tune very easily as you don't have to reset any bevels.

For instance Mike would kill me if I used any tool on my base bevel except for a diamond stone used very lightly by hand with no guide. I have a base bevel guide but I only needed it on my old Atomics out of the wrapper and for friends skis that do not have correct bevels.

Most of the demo days I have been to in New England and Cananda have had skis with horrendous tunes on them. Obviously manufacturers have more at stake at a Ski or Skiing demo and hand tune them like Mike said so people have a fair assessment of the ski and how it handles.

Everyone says to Demo, Demo, Demo but sometimes it makes you hate a ski.

Last year I demoed a Sally Hot in a 165 and the tune was so bad on them I had them give me another day of demoing because all the skis in the shop were horrendous. I am not going to pay $40-50 a day to ski on rounded edges.

The next day they supposedly tuned them and they still had a sucky tune. I ended up walking around and picked out the ski with the best edges which was a Crossmax 10.

I would not buy either of these skis based on how they handled that weekend but I know alot of it had to do with the teenager running the boards through the machine in their basement.

Having spent a lot of time on both sides of the ski testing and tuning quandry, I agree with the comments that say that it all comes down to the tune. I've skied very few skis (almost none) with a factory finish that really worked. I've always believed that you can't do better than a hand tune, but I'm probably a bit behind the times on that and have to believe that the current machine tune (done right) is better than the job that 99% of the shop guys can do with a file and a stone.
One question for Mike. Do you find that running a ski over the stone slightly case hardens the edge which results in a harsher, edgier, grabbier feel than when the edge is hand filed and polished super smooth, by hand, with a very fine stone? My guess is that I can't get as consistent a finish (and angles) doing it by hand, but that I can get a smoother finish that skis easier and doesn't feel as hooky. Have you ever compared skis on snow with your best machine only tune vs. the same ski with your best machine tune finished off by hand? That would be an interesting test.

That's right. It's time that everyone has the opportunity to feel the difference between right and wrong. I know the factories realize this more than ever, and are really beginning to wrap their arms around it. Unfortunately, at the factory level things do not get fixed over night.
Given the opportunity, I'm sure I can put you and your son in a better place. Give me a shout, there's nothing to lose.
Thanks, Mike

If the ski is ground correctly back to 0 degree of base bevel, the structure in the edge can make it difficult for a file to grab and cut the steel. Un- fortunately, if one tries to file out all the structure, stone it and sand it smooth, it's easy to have then over-beveled the edge. Even worse is to have brought the base edge angle into the base material itself. This effectively creates a wider base edge surface , resulting in a ski that actually feels like it's railed because it doesn't want to finish the turn.
A file always leaves a linear structure in the base edge. This structure equates to greater lateral resistance. This keeps the ski from being able to pivot up onto the edge with out feeling like it's grabby. Even an edge that is slightly over-beveled, but has a file structure can feel grabby.
The clear advantages with the ceramic disc lay in the finish it leaves on the edge. I'm the only one at the retail level (to quote Wintersteiger) that utilizes the hardest compound disc on my machine. That combined with the proper knowledge of the idiosyncrasies of the machine's calibration, leave a finish that no freehand can match. The bevel is extremley consistent, and the structure is highly polished and circular. The structure leads to the outer point of the base edge as opposed to running from tip to tail. This results in uncanny smoothness and progression when approaching any edge angle in the turn itself. It allows the driver to effectively utilize all the advantages that low base edge angles have to offer. .5-1.0 degree of base edge bevel, measured by true bar and the eye is a very, very small amount.
Let me put it this way. If I had one of these machines to set the edge angles when I was prepping Hilary Lindh's DH skis, I'm sure I could have found here a few more podiums and medals.
Yes, I have thoroughly tested both edge finishes. Without a doubt, a ski that has a proper disc finish on it is magical by comparison. Unfortunately, the nuances of how to run a disc machine are not taught by a Wintersteiger tech. It's all about R&D and being in a position to translate what your eye see's and translating that to what it feels like on the snow. I am able to look at a ski's base and edge finish and I will be able to tell you what kind of characteristic's your ski's exhibit. It's a lot of fun blowing peoples minds during our diagnosis process.
Thanks for the great question,
Mike

ps. Scalce, I refinished your sticks today, they came out awesome. I just need to get the plates and bindings back on. I won't be in tomorrow so they'll be ready on thursday if your interested.
Mike

CP,
Atomics are by far the most difficult skis to refinish. Yes, I take all plates and bindings off. Trust me, that's the easy part. Dealing with their concavity and prepping of the ski before it ever reaches the stone takes a great deal of time. The quandry is that one must maintain the inherent concavity in the tips and tails, but stlill get an even structure across the entire width of the base. All Atomics have some type of Beta profile that translates a great deal of contact pressure to the base edges while running over the stone. Too much pressure and weight will frequently result in a ski that becomes convex underfoot, which is totally unacceptable. Suffice to say, my specific process overcomes these obstacles and the skis come away better than new. Anyone that tells you the inherent concavity is wrong or a defect needs to go back to Atomic school. If one tries to take it out, they'll take your ski with it. However, over time and several PROPPER grinding procedures, the concavity will inevitably become reduced. But ONLY over time.
Atomics generally average about 65.00 to 75.00 to refinish. Trust me when I tell you that doing an Atomic CORRECTLY is a very involved process.
Thanks, Mike

Sweet

No rush. Not like I can use them.

Teddy took a quick look at the new 1080s and thought they had a pretty decent 1 degree base bevel so I will ski on them and see how they do.